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What do you all think about the atmosphere right now?

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eric76
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21 Dec 2014, 1:51 pm

I think that in the worst cases, the extent of the evil one can do has more to do with the culture and the opportunity and the motivation than it has to do with race.



Humanaut
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21 Dec 2014, 2:30 pm

Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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21 Dec 2014, 2:59 pm

So what is you all's solution to this problem? If you undermine the cops, you are going to see an explosion of violence and killings. Let's not forget the majority of crimes against blacks are committed by other blacks. It's an ugly fact but a fact nonetheless. So is our solution is to erode the authority of the police and give it to the criminals so they can shoot up buildings, houses, and streets?



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21 Dec 2014, 3:15 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling


Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups. Our country was founded on the creed that all men are created in the eyes of their creator and we should try to actually live up that idea, there shouldn't be 2nd or 3rd class citizens.

and no we're not going to see an explosion of violence and killings, most policing in this country has nothing to do with protecting us from violent criminals. Eric Garner wasn't a violent criminal, he was suspected of selling loosies which he wasn't even doing when he was killed. Ending this insane drug war and the militarization police in this country as a result of the imaginary perpetual War on Terror would go a long way in restoring inkling of justice and the words that our country was founded on. Dismantling the police state and the prison-industrial complex need to happen if we're going to save this country from tyranny and dictatorship. Victimless crime is not a crime, our cops shouldn't be using paramilitary tactics to tax and fine. The American Revolution over much less than what we put with today.



Humanaut
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21 Dec 2014, 3:56 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.



eric76
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21 Dec 2014, 4:07 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.


That's quite true.

I wonder if Jacoby can provide any modern examples of collective punishment in the US.

My guess is that he might bring up the Japanese Internment Camps during World War II as an example. In reality, though, they weren't there for punishment. The Niihau Incident showed us how easily some Japanese Americans with very distant ties to Japan were willing to turn around and help the Japanese when they attacked Pearl Harbor. It's not a reason for building the internment camps, but it certainly makes them understandable.



Jacoby
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21 Dec 2014, 4:12 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.


It assumes guilt and is inherently prejudice, it's also completely unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment.

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Jacoby
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21 Dec 2014, 4:17 pm

eric76 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.


That's quite true.

I wonder if Jacoby can provide any modern examples of collective punishment in the US.

My guess is that he might bring up the Japanese Internment Camps during World War II as an example. In reality, though, they weren't there for punishment. The Niihau Incident showed us how easily some Japanese Americans with very distant ties to Japan were willing to turn around and help the Japanese when they attacked Pearl Harbor. It's not a reason for building the internment camps, but it certainly makes them understandable.



There are a ton of examples and stop and frisk is good one so is police militarization in general, another glaring and obvious one that has been in the news a lot is the NSA mass surveillance system. The Japanese internment was 100% collective punishment, that's not a part of our history that anyone in this country should be proud of.



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21 Dec 2014, 4:23 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
...stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.
It assumes guilt and is inherently prejudice, it's also completely unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment.

Incorrect.



Jacoby
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21 Dec 2014, 4:24 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
...stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.
It assumes guilt and is inherently prejudice, it's also completely unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment.

Incorrect.


Incorrect.



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21 Dec 2014, 5:21 pm

Narrator wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
...just need people who aren't power hungry control freaks, regardless of gender.

Power corrupts

and absolute power corrupts absolutely.



eric76
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21 Dec 2014, 5:35 pm

Jacoby wrote:
There are a ton of examples and stop and frisk is good one so is police militarization in general, another glaring and obvious one that has been in the news a lot is the NSA mass surveillance system. The Japanese internment was 100% collective punishment, that's not a part of our history that anyone in this country should be proud of.


How is "stop and frisk" or "police militarization" a punishment? It may end up in punishment in many cases, but it is not itself a punishment.

If it weren't for the Niihau Incident, it is quite possible that there would have been no Japanese Internment Camps at all.



eric76
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21 Dec 2014, 5:39 pm

eric76 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.


That's quite true.

I wonder if Jacoby can provide any modern examples of collective punishment in the US.

My guess is that he might bring up the Japanese Internment Camps during World War II as an example. In reality, though, they weren't there for punishment. The Niihau Incident showed us how easily some Japanese Americans with very distant ties to Japan were willing to turn around and help the Japanese when they attacked Pearl Harbor. It's not a reason for building the internment camps, but it certainly makes them understandable.


I meant to say that it was not, by itself, a valid reason for building the internment camps.



androbot01
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21 Dec 2014, 5:42 pm

The war is on in New York. The cat was out of the bag with the stop and frisk. When some members of the population have the power to stop anyone for any reason they will naturally become too big for their britches...and start to push the envelope - in this case to the point of killing someone for no reason (Garner.) A retaliation is to be expected. And a reciprocal move by the police I'm sure. New York City needs to reign in their force or people who are stopped will feel their lives are threatened. More will die on each side before this is resolved, I'm sure.



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21 Dec 2014, 5:44 pm

eric76 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
wh***y Bulger was an old white dude,plus the Mafia Dons.But they had wealth which gives white thugs a free pass.Hitler was for sure an old crazy ass white dude.When it comes to sheer mayhem,no one can surpass an evil old white devil.Oh yeah,Warren Jeffs,and let's not forget him,and those nice white guys in the sheets.Nothing makes you feel like a part of a community like a big blazing cross in the yard.


People aren't evil because they are white. If that was the case, then whites would account for far more than their share of serious crimes as a percentage of population, not less.

In terms of killing their own people, look at places like Rwanda where 800,000 were reportedly killed in less than four months. It wasn't white men behind that.

Don't forget the Congo Civil War. Exactly which side was white?

How about Idi Amin, the former President of Uganda? Was he white?

Pol Pot of Cambodia -- white?

And don't forget the terrible atrocities committed by the Japanese during World War II against the Chinese, the Koreans, and others. Were they white men?


Of course evil knows no skin color.
I didn't say ALL white people were evil,although statistically most serial killers are white.
A rich white evil man riding around in a limo is less likely to get stopped by the police than a young innocent black man in a beater going to work at Mickey D's.
For instance,let's say Donald Trump acts out in public,is he likely to be tazed?
A homeless black man acts out in public,what do you think will happen?


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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


eric76
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21 Dec 2014, 5:46 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
the point is you shouldn't profile

Why not? It's just a form of calculus. Race and gender are two relevant factors in some circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
Collective punishment is always wrong, individuals do right and wrong not groups.

I do agree, but stop and frisk is not a punishment in itself.


It assumes guilt and is inherently prejudice, it's also completely unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment.

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The US Supreme Court in Terry v Ohio would seem to differ provided that the police have a reasonable suspicion.