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The_Walrus
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30 Mar 2015, 6:17 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Perhaps a pay hike would attract a better class of teachers.


Their pay is low, but they get a pension, and only work only about seven months per year.

The average school year is 180 days long, which is 36 weeks, which is nine months. Teachers also have to work through much of their "holidays".



pcuser
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30 Mar 2015, 9:39 am

Dox47 wrote:
pcuser wrote:
If racism is incidental here, why haven't whites been targeted instead of blacks? Where in this country do we see this going in the opposite direction???


Because the goal was not to screw over black people per se, but rather to fund the local government through organized theft, which disproportionately effected the black population who are overrepresented amongst the poor being victimized. The police force doing the dirty work on the ground was racially integrated, this was about money first, the racism was only a side effect.

Have you even read the article. The police department was overwhelming white in an overwhelmingly black city. How is that not racism???



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30 Mar 2015, 9:53 am

The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Perhaps a pay hike would attract a better class of teachers.


Their pay is low, but they get a pension, and only work only about seven months per year.

The average school year is 180 days long, which is 36 weeks, which is nine months. Teachers also have to work through much of their "holidays".


Teachers where I am at get:
-~11 weeks off during the summer ( june 11 to early september 2)
- 8-10 sick days
- 3 days off for Thanksgiving break
- 1 week off for winter break
- 1 week off for mid-winter break
- 1 week off for spring break
- 3-4 days off for "cold days"

So, about 16 weeks off / year.

Plus, several half days, and testing days when the school is shutdown.



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30 Mar 2015, 10:03 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Perhaps a pay hike would attract a better class of teachers.


Their pay is low, but they get a pension, and only work only about seven months per year.

The average school year is 180 days long, which is 36 weeks, which is nine months. Teachers also have to work through much of their "holidays".


Teachers where I am at get:
-~11 weeks off during the summer ( june 11 to early september 2)
- 8-10 sick days
- 3 days off for Thanksgiving break
- 1 week off for winter break
- 1 week off for mid-winter break
- 1 week off for spring break
- 3-4 days off for "cold days"

So, about 16 weeks off / year.

Plus, several half days, and testing days when the school is shutdown.


But it's also true that during summer break, they spend their time formulating a lesson plan for the school year - and that's unpaid work.


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The_Walrus
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30 Mar 2015, 10:16 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Perhaps a pay hike would attract a better class of teachers.


Their pay is low, but they get a pension, and only work only about seven months per year.

The average school year is 180 days long, which is 36 weeks, which is nine months. Teachers also have to work through much of their "holidays".


Teachers where I am at get:
-~11 weeks off during the summer ( june 11 to early september 2)
- 8-10 sick days
- 3 days off for Thanksgiving break
- 1 week off for winter break
- 1 week off for mid-winter break
- 1 week off for spring break
- 3-4 days off for "cold days"

So, about 16 weeks off / year.

Well yes, if you'd done the mathematics you'd see that 36+16=52... Sick days and snow days are not holidays, so it would seem teachers in your area actually work harder than the national average, and regardless, it seems very hard to spin "16 weeks" as "five months". It's not even five Februarys...



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30 Mar 2015, 4:49 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
You seem to be making some unsupported claims about my political position. I'm only slightly left-of-centre, and I don't endorse most of the policies and/or views you credit me with (though I would be interested in knowing how you think college admissions should work to be completely meritocratic. Standardised tests seem a better idea than interviews, buy-ins, or a lottery).

You weigh in on American politics often, so it would be good to read about it:

fairtest.org wrote:
Recent debate in college admissions has centered on a critique of the SAT I in favor of the SAT II and/or ACT. Proponents of these alternatives argue that the SAT I is primarily an aptitude test measuring some vague concept of "inherent ability," while the SAT II and ACT are more closely tied to what students learn in high school. However, while the origins of the exams and the rhetoric test-makers offer may differ, the SAT I, SAT II, and ACT present many of the same flaws and shortcomings. All three exams have a weak ability to predict academic performance in college, making high school grades/GPA and rigor of classes taken the best measures of student potential. All three exams are highly coachable, advantaging students who can afford to spend $800 or more on test preparation classes. All three exams have a similar format, disadvantaging groups such as females and English as a Second Language learners who tend not to perform as well on timed, multiple-choice exams. All three exams show large gaps in scores between students of different racial groups, leading to racial bias in admissions and financial aid formulas that utilize rigid test score requirements. All three exams place the financial and time burden on students rather than universities, making them low-investment sources of information for colleges but high-investment hurdles for students. Finally, all three exams assess students on a narrow range of topics, covering only a small portion of the learning students engage in over four years of high school.


(Links: 1, 2)

Quote:
Like I said in my post that you quoted, and like Dox said in his post, this isn't primarily about inequality.

Where did you say that?

Quote:
It's about an incredibly corrupt police force who do all kinds of sh***y things. If you want to make a thread about how men have it worse under the legal system then by all means. Don't start playing Oppression Olympics.


Given that I've never been arrested, and have had exactly one moving violation in my life (expired license tabs on a car that I borrowed while staying with a friend out-of-state), how is my concern for condemned or incarcerated men 'about me', as you originally claimed? My odds of being on the wrong end of the system are very, very low.



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31 Mar 2015, 7:29 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Still, the hard part is, what to do about it. Identifying a problem is one thing, but making changes in the face of corruption and bigotry is quite another.


All those municipalities need to be dissolved, their city councils and police officers charged and tried, and their victims compensated, for a start. Not that that's going to happen, liberals aren't going to want to acknowledge the out of control government part of the story, and conservatives aren't going to want to hear the racial angle, so nothing is likely to happen. Personally, were it within my power I'd have those people whacked, but fortunately for them I'm not yet a reclusive billionaire.


I'm a progressive Democrat and I don't care what party the officials are part of, they need to go if they are part of the problem. However, i suspect that most of these officials are Republican...



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31 Mar 2015, 9:24 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Well yes, if you'd done the mathematics you'd see that 36+16=52... Sick days and snow days are not holidays, so it would seem teachers in your area actually work harder than the national average, and regardless, it seems very hard to spin "16 weeks" as "five months". It's not even five Februarys...


Yes, I was wrong. Our "winter break" is 2 weeks, not 1 week. So, 17 total weeks.

You have to count sick/personal/vacation because those are truly days off. The schools allow for accumulation of personal days, so that if you don't use them this year, then you can save them for say twenty years from now and use them then.

Snow days are a bonus.

However, my original point was that this job is much desired because of all this time off.



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31 Mar 2015, 10:13 pm

pcuser wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Still, the hard part is, what to do about it. Identifying a problem is one thing, but making changes in the face of corruption and bigotry is quite another.


All those municipalities need to be dissolved, their city councils and police officers charged and tried, and their victims compensated, for a start. Not that that's going to happen, liberals aren't going to want to acknowledge the out of control government part of the story, and conservatives aren't going to want to hear the racial angle, so nothing is likely to happen. Personally, were it within my power I'd have those people whacked, but fortunately for them I'm not yet a reclusive billionaire.


I'm a progressive Democrat and I don't care what party the officials are part of, they need to go if they are part of the problem. However, i suspect that most of these officials are Republican...


Yeah, I don't think anybody on the left will give a rat's ass about what party these people belong to. They need to go.

Local, city, and even state politics can be funny... Around here, many politicians don't stress their party affiliations at all. Some of those elected officials could be Democrats. BUT, something else to remember is that a lot of this stuff is being perpetrated by unelected civil servants/bureaucrats. They just need to be fired tout de suite.


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31 Mar 2015, 11:11 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Still, the hard part is, what to do about it. Identifying a problem is one thing, but making changes in the face of corruption and bigotry is quite another.


All those municipalities need to be dissolved, their city councils and police officers charged and tried, and their victims compensated, for a start. Not that that's going to happen, liberals aren't going to want to acknowledge the out of control government part of the story, and conservatives aren't going to want to hear the racial angle, so nothing is likely to happen. Personally, were it within my power I'd have those people whacked, but fortunately for them I'm not yet a reclusive billionaire.


I'm a progressive Democrat and I don't care what party the officials are part of, they need to go if they are part of the problem. However, i suspect that most of these officials are Republican...


Yeah, I don't think anybody on the left will give a rat's ass about what party these people belong to.


Democrats are quite capable of being cozy with corrupt thugs, whether it's Michael "stop and frisk" Bloomberg or the LAPD. In the Twin Cities, the Michael Brown case was used to distract from our own racial justice problems. We pretend that it's just those rednecks south of the Masaon-Dixon line who cause all of the trouble, and that way we don't have to eat our own soup.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:48 am

NobodyKnows wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Still, the hard part is, what to do about it. Identifying a problem is one thing, but making changes in the face of corruption and bigotry is quite another.


All those municipalities need to be dissolved, their city councils and police officers charged and tried, and their victims compensated, for a start. Not that that's going to happen, liberals aren't going to want to acknowledge the out of control government part of the story, and conservatives aren't going to want to hear the racial angle, so nothing is likely to happen. Personally, were it within my power I'd have those people whacked, but fortunately for them I'm not yet a reclusive billionaire.


I'm a progressive Democrat and I don't care what party the officials are part of, they need to go if they are part of the problem. However, i suspect that most of these officials are Republican...


Yeah, I don't think anybody on the left will give a rat's ass about what party these people belong to.


Democrats are quite capable of being cozy with corrupt thugs, whether it's Michael "stop and frisk" Bloomberg or the LAPD. In the Twin Cities, the Michael Brown case was used to distract from our own racial justice problems. We pretend that it's just those rednecks south of the Masaon-Dixon line who cause all of the trouble, and that way we don't have to eat our own soup.


I believe Bloomberg had been a Republican prior to running for Mayor of New York, and essentially operated as one.


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01 Apr 2015, 10:22 am

I looked at his record before I posted that. The man is 73 years old and has spent exactly six years of his life as a Republican. He was mayor of NYC for 12. He's donated more than $50 million to gun control efforts. If a Republican-turned-Democrat-turned-independent spent eight figures fighting Obamacare after leaving office, what party would you think he belonged to?

I also don't have to use Bloomberg as an example of corruption, since I used to work with Villaraigosa's campaign manager.



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01 Apr 2015, 10:31 am

NobodyKnows wrote:
I looked at his record before I posted that. The man is 73 years old and has spent exactly six years of his life as a Republican. He was mayor of NYC for 12. He's donated more than $50 million to gun control efforts. If a Republican-turned-Democrat-turned-independent spent eight figures fighting Obamacare after leaving office, what party would you think he belonged to?

I also don't have to use Bloomberg as an example of corruption, since I used to work with Villaraigosa's campaign manager.


I think he sounds like an opportunist, and a political chameleon.


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01 Apr 2015, 12:37 pm

Brilliant! I don't have probable cause to arrest you, so I'm going to go ahead and put you in this wanteds system, so that you can be arrested at some random future time and place even if we still don't have probable cause.


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02 Apr 2015, 3:47 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
You seem to be making some unsupported claims about my political position. I'm only slightly left-of-centre, and I don't endorse most of the policies and/or views you credit me with (though I would be interested in knowing how you think college admissions should work to be completely meritocratic. Standardised tests seem a better idea than interviews, buy-ins, or a lottery).

You weigh in on American politics often, so it would be good to read about it:

fairtest.org wrote:
Recent debate in college admissions has centered on a critique of the SAT I in favor of the SAT II and/or ACT. Proponents of these alternatives argue that the SAT I is primarily an aptitude test measuring some vague concept of "inherent ability," while the SAT II and ACT are more closely tied to what students learn in high school. However, while the origins of the exams and the rhetoric test-makers offer may differ, the SAT I, SAT II, and ACT present many of the same flaws and shortcomings. All three exams have a weak ability to predict academic performance in college, making high school grades/GPA and rigor of classes taken the best measures of student potential. All three exams are highly coachable, advantaging students who can afford to spend $800 or more on test preparation classes. All three exams have a similar format, disadvantaging groups such as females and English as a Second Language learners who tend not to perform as well on timed, multiple-choice exams. All three exams show large gaps in scores between students of different racial groups, leading to racial bias in admissions and financial aid formulas that utilize rigid test score requirements. All three exams place the financial and time burden on students rather than universities, making them low-investment sources of information for colleges but high-investment hurdles for students. Finally, all three exams assess students on a narrow range of topics, covering only a small portion of the learning students engage in over four years of high school.


(Links: 1, 2)

I would suggest that you have bolded the wrong parts of that excerpt. You should have bolded the bit where it suggests looking at exam results as opposed to standardised tests. I would quite agree with that - indeed, it is standard practice for university admissions in this country (except medicine). However, there are of course flaws in this system - exam results are also biased towards people who can afford tutors and such.

Quote:
Like I said in my post that you quoted, and like Dox said in his post, this isn't primarily about inequality.

Where did you say that?
[/quote]
Here:
The_Walrus wrote:
Yes, there's probably a bias against men in the legal system. Yes, that's a bad thing. It's also not what this discussion is about.

I do appreciate that you could have interpreted that in another way.

Now, are you going to stop dragging irrelevancies into this thread?



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03 Apr 2015, 3:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
You seem to be making some unsupported claims about my political position. I'm only slightly left-of-centre, and I don't endorse most of the policies and/or views you credit me with (though I would be interested in knowing how you think college admissions should work to be completely meritocratic. Standardised tests seem a better idea than interviews, buy-ins, or a lottery).

You weigh in on American politics often, so it would be good to read about it:

fairtest.org wrote:
Recent debate in college admissions has centered on a critique of the SAT I in favor of the SAT II and/or ACT. Proponents of these alternatives argue that the SAT I is primarily an aptitude test measuring some vague concept of "inherent ability," while the SAT II and ACT are more closely tied to what students learn in high school. However, while the origins of the exams and the rhetoric test-makers offer may differ, the SAT I, SAT II, and ACT present many of the same flaws and shortcomings. All three exams have a weak ability to predict academic performance in college, making high school grades/GPA and rigor of classes taken the best measures of student potential. All three exams are highly coachable, advantaging students who can afford to spend $800 or more on test preparation classes. All three exams have a similar format, disadvantaging groups such as females and English as a Second Language learners who tend not to perform as well on timed, multiple-choice exams. All three exams show large gaps in scores between students of different racial groups, leading to racial bias in admissions and financial aid formulas that utilize rigid test score requirements. All three exams place the financial and time burden on students rather than universities, making them low-investment sources of information for colleges but high-investment hurdles for students. Finally, all three exams assess students on a narrow range of topics, covering only a small portion of the learning students engage in over four years of high school.


(Links: 1, 2)

I would suggest that you have bolded the wrong parts of that excerpt. You should have bolded the bit where it suggests looking at exam results as opposed to standardised tests.


Why should I have bolded that? I can guess why you might want to, but I would rather see wider use of intelligence tests (in place of knowledge tests). This may not be true in the UK, but freshmen in the US retake a lot of high school level stuff. Being slightly behind when they graduate high school won't make much difference. The other issue is that when you grade on a curve, the difference between an A and a B is sometimes not very big.

I'd like to see anyone who pays their tuition and isn't disruptive allowed to take classes. We're not out of chairs in our auditoriums. On the contrary, when the pressure to go to college was at its peak here, the local colleges were taking out ads in bus stops to attract more students.