Page 4 of 4 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

12 Jun 2015, 7:55 pm

sly279 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sly279 wrote:
hope you anti tax people never get your way, or millions upon millions will die.


The thing is, people advocating for ending taxation think only about business and property owners. The needy and disabled don't even cross their minds, which is practically as bad as wanting them to die.


indeed. probably why they dream of the days that only rich property owning white men were citizens. so all the rest of us can be slaves or indentured servants(slaves) to them.


There was one tea party leader who recently advocated only extending suffrage to property owners, because, as he said, "They have the most at stake." :roll:


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Ban-Dodger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jun 2011
Age: 1028
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,820
Location: Возможно в будущее к Россию идти... можеть быть...

12 Jun 2015, 8:56 pm

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness was originally...:

Life, Liberty, and the Right to Ownership of One's Own Property (i.e.: Absolutely no government has a right to dictate how you may use your own stuff through threats of fines or other forms of tax).


_________________
Pay me for my signature. 私の署名ですか❓お前の買うなければなりません。Mon autographe nécessite un paiement. Которые хочет мою автографу, у тебя нужно есть деньги сюда. Bezahlst du mich, wenn du meine Unterschrift wollen.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

12 Jun 2015, 10:41 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness was originally...:

Life, Liberty, and the Right to Ownership of One's Own Property (i.e.: Absolutely no government has a right to dictate how you may use your own stuff through threats of fines or other forms of tax).


Obviously that changed, because those with nothing have the right to happiness, too.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

13 Jun 2015, 8:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Ban-Dodger wrote:
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness was originally...:

Life, Liberty, and the Right to Ownership of One's Own Property (i.e.: Absolutely no government has a right to dictate how you may use your own stuff through threats of fines or other forms of tax).

Obviously that changed, because those with nothing have the right to happiness, too.

In 1689, philosopher and physician John Locke argued in his Two Treatises of Government that political society existed for the sake of protecting "property", which he defined as a person's "life, liberty, and estate".

In 1776, Second Continental Congress Delegate Thomas Jefferson included a paraphrase of Locke (or possibly others) in his draft of the U.S. Declaration of Independence which provides that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This provision argued for the right to own property.

In 1789, U.S. Rep. James Madison more closely paraphrased Locke (or possibly others) in his draft of what would become the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution for the United States of America which provides that "No person shall be [...] deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law[.]" This provision protects the right to own property.

The reason that so many U.K. and U.S. citizens wanted their right to own property was because they had experienced a monarchy which ignored such a right and had their homes, farms and businesses (regardless of size or value) invaded militarily, seized and confiscated by their U.K. government. Without the right to own property, providing for one's self and family was meaningless.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

14 Jun 2015, 8:53 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
Hitler was voted in by 98% of the entire population of Germany/Austria.


No, this is completely wrong. The actual figure was 33.09%

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_fe ... ember_1932



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

14 Jun 2015, 9:01 pm

Lintar wrote:
Ban-Dodger wrote:
Hitler was voted in by 98% of the entire population of Germany/Austria.


No, this is completely wrong. The actual figure was 33.09%

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_fe ... ember_1932


Thanks for bringing up the facts of the situation. Plenty of Germans wouldn't have given Hitler the time of day, let alone vote for him.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Inventor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,014
Location: New Orleans

14 Jun 2015, 10:59 pm

eric76 wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
eric76 wrote:
...

Quote:
But, I am less enthusiastic about the Fair Tax (with or without Ron Paul's idea for a family-food exemption) as I would be about a repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment and a return to interstate excise tax (which would increase the costs of goods among all buyers, including the very rich).


The excise taxes of the past could never pay for all the government programs we have now.

The real answer is not to cut taxes but to cut spending. I don't care what we do to taxes -- until we cut spending things are going to be in a mess. Taxes are the symptom -- spending is the disease.

I personally think that we should have a balanced budget. We should pay for all of our spending out of taxes. If we had to raise taxes to 75%, then what it would really do is show to everyone what the real cost of our spending is. As long as our spending depends on borrowing so much money, nothing is going to be fixed.

Fix spending and taxes will follow. Trying to fix taxes without fixing spending first is nothing but foolishness.


Ike had a 95% top rate. He paid off WWII, Korea, The American Autobahn, and rebuilt Europe.

No one will pay 95% when they can reduce their tax burden by hiring, building, inventory.

Make paying as you go the rule, including paying down National Debt.

Taxes can only be reduced when debts are paid, and the cost of government is lower.

That war they would vote for today, and gladly pay for Tuesday, will be avoided if taxes are raised automatically to meet spending.

They will object, tell them the other choice is a tax on Capital.

Tax cuts have put trillions in the pockets of high earners. The goal was to grow the economy. That happened, now It is time to recover those trillions.

To reduce the cost of government, we need to double taxes. A tax income of six Trillion a year is needed to cover current costs, plus the National Debt which is the War Baby Social Security. Wars cost extra.

All personal income should be subject to Social Security. I pay 1% to withdraw my money from an ATM, all Securities could pay as much.

Half goes to war, half to Social Security, Medicare. It is an incentive to reduce war, and prepay Social Security.

Our employment does not need a $15 an hour minimum wage, It needs 10% more jobs, which a higher tax rate will produce. Those jobs will pay more than minimum. Leave a place for the workers on the bottom.

Debts covered, full employment, we could fix this place up. High Speed Rail has to happen someday. Getting the right of way is cheapest now. The best space is empty, and we could build new cities along the rails.

Some nice retirement for War Babies, get them out of the way, give them incentives to quit, sell out, and move.

They get a sweet retirement deal, everyone else gets a War Baby Free world, with great economic mobility.

We are not in an impossible situation, we just need a plan and follow it.



cberg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

14 Jun 2015, 11:16 pm

This is why I love high mountains. Kind people congregate in such places, because unkind people see the world as they are, and mountains for all their beauty are not forgiving. As much as I love the intricacy of cities, I don't really belong in one.


_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos :mrgreen:


The_Walrus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

15 Jun 2015, 12:58 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
Interest-Rates & Taxes need to be REMOVED from society altogether ! They are the SOLE reason why "Economy" is never stable. Get rid of Taxes & Interest-Rates & the 100$ you earn today will still be able to buy you 100$ worth of goods even 200 years into the future.

Remove interest rates and you also remove the incentive to lend. Without lending, investment stalls and growth is slow.

Yes, we'd have economic stability, no recessions and no debt bubbles, but overall we'd be worse off.



Ban-Dodger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jun 2011
Age: 1028
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,820
Location: Возможно в будущее к Россию идти... можеть быть...

15 Jun 2015, 6:10 pm

How would "we" be worse off ? If anything I know I'd be better off.
Although I most-certainly do value having freedom more than I do material-things.

The_Walrus wrote:
Ban-Dodger wrote:
Interest-Rates & Taxes need to be REMOVED from society altogether ! They are the SOLE reason why "Economy" is never stable. Get rid of Taxes & Interest-Rates & the 100$ you earn today will still be able to buy you 100$ worth of goods even 200 years into the future.

Remove interest rates and you also remove the incentive to lend. Without lending, investment stalls and growth is slow.

Yes, we'd have economic stability, no recessions and no debt bubbles, but overall we'd be worse off.

I would rather have a "real" economy than a "bubble" economy any day.

I would also rather pay the actual value for a product than be tricked into getting a 20K$US+ loan where the Interest-rates tack on an additional 800$US to be paid every month whilst minimum monthly payment was set at 650$US if I'm working my ass off to try & get anywhere in the financial-progress department where I might only be being paid a maximum of a 1K$US or perhaps even 2K$US at most monthly income (and nobody deserves to be able to live such a free hand-me-down inheritance-life-style by sitting around, calling themselves bankers, and contributing nothing to society's maintenance nor advancement whilst living completely off the backs & sweat & efforts of others being their income-slaves via interest-rates or any other form of usury).

I also have enough experience in resource-controlling multi-player games to know that becoming "rich" is merely a matter of controlling all of the resources (a monopoly), and if you're tenacious & unscrupulous enough, the control of enough resources allows you to be able to control a hell of a lot of other resources such to the point where you can literally prevent anybody else from being able to obtain said resources even to the point where you could basically "own" them & make them do all of your bidding (Monopolies, man, over-powered).

I so much want to add a documentary on "Rich People" (and how most of them/us tend to make their/our money through scams/thefts apart from just "inheriting" everything) but let's go with a "Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam" clip instead...


_________________
Pay me for my signature. 私の署名ですか❓お前の買うなければなりません。Mon autographe nécessite un paiement. Которые хочет мою автографу, у тебя нужно есть деньги сюда. Bezahlst du mich, wenn du meine Unterschrift wollen.


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

15 Jun 2015, 6:29 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
How would "we" be worse off ? If anything I know I'd be better off.
Although I most-certainly do value having freedom more than I do material-things.
The_Walrus wrote:
Ban-Dodger wrote:
Interest-Rates & Taxes need to be REMOVED from society altogether ! They are the SOLE reason why "Economy" is never stable. Get rid of Taxes & Interest-Rates & the 100$ you earn today will still be able to buy you 100$ worth of goods even 200 years into the future.

Remove interest rates and you also remove the incentive to lend. Without lending, investment stalls and growth is slow.

Yes, we'd have economic stability, no recessions and no debt bubbles, but overall we'd be worse off.

I would rather have a "real" economy than a "bubble" economy any day.

I would also rather pay the actual value for a product than be tricked into getting a 20K$US+ loan where the Interest-rates tack on an additional 800$US to be paid every month whilst minimum monthly payment was set at 650$US if I'm working my ass off to try & get anywhere in the financial-progress department where I might only be being paid a maximum of a 1K$US or perhaps even 2K$US at most monthly income (and nobody deserves to be able to live such a free hand-me-down inheritance-life-style by sitting around, calling themselves bankers, and contributing nothing to society's maintenance nor advancement whilst living completely off the backs & sweat & efforts of others being their income-slaves via interest-rates or any other form of usury).

I also have enough experience in resource-controlling multi-player games to know that becoming "rich" is merely a matter of controlling all of the resources (a monopoly), and if you're tenacious & unscrupulous enough, the control of enough resources allows you to be able to control a hell of a lot of other resources such to the point where you can literally prevent anybody else from being able to obtain said resources even to the point where you could basically "own" them & make them do all of your bidding (Monopolies, man, over-powered).

I so much want to add a documentary on "Rich People" (and how most of them/us tend to make their/our money through scams/thefts apart from just "inheriting" everything) but let's go with a "Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam" clip instead...

And, people wonder why I loathed my career in marketing.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

15 Jun 2015, 7:48 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
How would "we" be worse off ? If anything I know I'd be better off.
Although I most-certainly do value having freedom more than I do material-things.
The_Walrus wrote:
Ban-Dodger wrote:
Interest-Rates & Taxes need to be REMOVED from society altogether ! They are the SOLE reason why "Economy" is never stable. Get rid of Taxes & Interest-Rates & the 100$ you earn today will still be able to buy you 100$ worth of goods even 200 years into the future.

Remove interest rates and you also remove the incentive to lend. Without lending, investment stalls and growth is slow.

Yes, we'd have economic stability, no recessions and no debt bubbles, but overall we'd be worse off.

I would rather have a "real" economy than a "bubble" economy any day.

I would also rather pay the actual value for a product than be tricked into getting a 20K$US+ loan where the Interest-rates tack on an additional 800$US to be paid every month whilst minimum monthly payment was set at 650$US if I'm working my ass off to try & get anywhere in the financial-progress department where I might only be being paid a maximum of a 1K$US or perhaps even 2K$US at most monthly income (and nobody deserves to be able to live such a free hand-me-down inheritance-life-style by sitting around, calling themselves bankers, and contributing nothing to society's maintenance nor advancement whilst living completely off the backs & sweat & efforts of others being their income-slaves via interest-rates or any other form of usury).

I also have enough experience in resource-controlling multi-player games to know that becoming "rich" is merely a matter of controlling all of the resources (a monopoly), and if you're tenacious & unscrupulous enough, the control of enough resources allows you to be able to control a hell of a lot of other resources such to the point where you can literally prevent anybody else from being able to obtain said resources even to the point where you could basically "own" them & make them do all of your bidding (Monopolies, man, over-powered).

I so much want to add a documentary on "Rich People" (and how most of them/us tend to make their/our money through scams/thefts apart from just "inheriting" everything) but let's go with a "Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam" clip instead...


Geez, am I glad I got my wife an opal ring when we got married!


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

16 Jun 2015, 1:25 pm

Magneto wrote:
Yeah, just ignore all the effects that the state has on increasing the cost of housing substantially, ignore how they regulate and tax people to stop them supporting themselves, and then point to it and say "see, the free market doesn't work"... :roll:

Oh, and they do housing first in Utah. It works. It costs them $11k a year to provide an apartment.

That's an interesting link, thanks. Also, it should be note that that is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. So, thanks for making my point.

Let me say again, the problem with private, religious charities doing social saftey net stuff is that they ignore research (housing first is evidence-based) and do things based on their intuitive notions of morality.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus