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US State of Georgia renames confederate holidays

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Raptor
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14 Aug 2015, 10:39 am

Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.


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14 Aug 2015, 10:56 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties


Because we're talking about the civil liberties that were denied to millions of people because of a racist ideology that propped up slavery. The civil liberties espoused by the Confederacy was about denying those same liberties to their slaves. And that's why we liberals today will not tolerate sympathy for the Confederate cause, as it was indefensible.


Except it wasn't some righteous black and white war between good and evil to end slavery, that might be what you want to believe but that isn't the reality. No matter what you say it doesn't change the fact that slavery was a dying institution and America was the only country in the world that apparently needed a war to end it, I don't feel the need to go over this again with you but pretty much all the abuses of the War On Terror find precedent from Lincoln in the civil war. If the South didn't secede then there wouldn't of been any freeing of the slaves, in fact Lincoln was willing preserve the institution in perpetuity with in its current borders along with federal enforcement of fugitive slave laws if he could stop the spread of slavery in the western states which he thought white people were entitled to settle without having to compete with slavers economically.

For those that didn't own slaves, it was actually a pretty great detriment because think about the effect that would have on the labor market. The southern aristocracy utilized the economic insecurity of poor whites to subjugate the black slave population who they feared, that is essentially the basis of racism in this country and the elites still divides us to this day with this very tactic.



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14 Aug 2015, 11:13 am

Insightful stuff from Jacoby and Orwell (amongst others) here.

These sorts of threads have degenerated into mud-slinging a lot in the recent past, can we please try to avoid any more of that so that we can have a constructive discussion?



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14 Aug 2015, 11:28 am

To the comments about Kentucky - they didn't secede, but the state was pretty evenly split. They attempted to remain "neutral" for a time in the war, and it wasn't rare for Kentuckians to go south to join the Confederate army.

Raptor wrote:
Equating the confederacy with the third reich. :roll:

Yeah. Problem with that? Both white supremacist regimes. And in modern times there's lots of overlap between the people who admire the two and use their imagery.


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Orwell
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14 Aug 2015, 11:31 am

Jacoby wrote:
Except it wasn't some righteous black and white war between good and evil to end slavery, that might be what you want to believe but that isn't the reality.

You're welcome to disagree with every contemporary Confederate leader on their reasons for starting the war. Not sure how you would plan to prove that everyone directly involved in the events was wrong about their own motivations, but that's your business.


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14 Aug 2015, 11:53 am

Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Except it wasn't some righteous black and white war between good and evil to end slavery, that might be what you want to believe but that isn't the reality.

You're welcome to disagree with every contemporary Confederate leader on their reasons for starting the war. Not sure how you would plan to prove that everyone directly involved in the events was wrong about their own motivations, but that's your business.


What led to secession and what the war was fought for aren't the same thing, do you believe that war would of happened without secession? Do you think secession would of been tolerated for any other reason? The issue of slavery was the catalyst yes and the slavers knew their position as completely untenable unless slavery was allowed to spread into the west or else that balance of power would of swung so far in favor of the abolitionist forces that eventually they could pass a constitutional amendment banning slavery and there would be nothing they could do to stop it. There had been considerable efforts to placate and reassure the southern states, the Corwin amendment was a last ditch effort that was passed by congress and sent to the states for ratification which would of permanently enshrined slavery into our constitution and made it impervious to ever being repealed. It read as...

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State."

This passed the house, the senate, was signed by outgoing president James Buchanan, was endorsed by Lincoln, and ratified by Ohio/Illinois/Maryland.



Last edited by Jacoby on 14 Aug 2015, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell
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14 Aug 2015, 11:57 am

Jacoby wrote:
What led to secession and what the war was fought for aren't the same thing,

Yes it was. Or rather, secession was the proximate cause of the war, and the cause of secession (slavery) was therefore the root cause of the war.

Quote:
do you believe that war would of happened without secession? Do you think secession would of been tolerated for any other reason?

No to both questions. Don't see how that's relevant to anything though.


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14 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm

Raptor wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.

Er...they didn't burn witches in this country.



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14 Aug 2015, 12:07 pm

Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
What led to secession and what the war was fought for aren't the same thing,

Yes it was. Or rather, secession was the proximate cause of the war, and the cause of secession (slavery) was therefore the root cause of the war.

Quote:
do you believe that war would of happened without secession? Do you think secession would of been tolerated for any other reason?

No to both questions. Don't see how that's relevant to anything though.


It's relevant to my point that the Union was fighting a war to stop secession not to end slavery, the south thought it was their right to secede and their motivation in doing so was to preserve slavery.



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14 Aug 2015, 12:08 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.

Er...they didn't burn witches in this country.


there are many modern equivalents to witch burning in this country



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14 Aug 2015, 12:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
To the comments about Kentucky - they didn't secede, but the state was pretty evenly split. They attempted to remain "neutral" for a time in the war, and it wasn't rare for Kentuckians to go south to join the Confederate army.

Raptor wrote:
Equating the confederacy with the third reich. :roll:

Yeah. Problem with that?

Me? No, but I'm seeing a lot of anger from your side over this secession that ended 150 years ago. It's every bit as unhinged and hysterical as the bible thumpers that are vehemently against the celebration of Halloween.

Quote:
Both white supremacist regimes. And in modern times there's lots of overlap between the people who admire the two and use their imagery.

Apples to oranges comparison. Show me the calculated genocide of millions and the brutal expansion across a continent that would have had to happened by confederate hands in order to make that comparison.


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14 Aug 2015, 12:23 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.

Er...they didn't burn witches in this country.


Oh really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
Quote:
The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts between February 1692 and May 1693. The trials resulted in the executions of twenty people, most of them women. Despite being generally known as the Salem witch trials, the preliminary hearings in 1692 were conducted in several towns in the Province of Massachusetts Bay: Salem Village (now Danvers), Salem Town, Ipswich and Andover. The most infamous trials were conducted by the Court of Oyer and Terminer in 1692 in Salem Town. One contemporary writer summarized the results of the trials:


Well they might not have actually burned them (pitiful small victory for you :roll:) but there were still witch hunts, witch trials, and hangings and other means of execution in Colonial America.
Still the same self righteous lynch mob herd mentality that the party of tolerance and love lets slip with boring regularity.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Aug 2015, 12:32 pm

Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.

Er...they didn't burn witches in this country.


there are many modern equivalents to witch burning in this country

They actually hung witches here and burnt them in Europe.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Aug 2015, 12:34 pm

Raptor wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Leftists turn into post-9/11 neocons about the civil war, traitor this sedition that goodbye civil liberties

They're basically cut from the same cloth as the witch burners of the colonial era.

Er...they didn't burn witches in this country.


Oh really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
Quote:
The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts between February 1692 and May 1693. The trials resulted in the executions of twenty people, most of them women. Despite being generally known as the Salem witch trials, the preliminary hearings in 1692 were conducted in several towns in the Province of Massachusetts Bay: Salem Village (now Danvers), Salem Town, Ipswich and Andover. The most infamous trials were conducted by the Court of Oyer and Terminer in 1692 in Salem Town. One contemporary writer summarized the results of the trials:


Well they might not have actually burned them (pitiful small victory for you :roll:) but there were still witch hunts, witch trials, and hangings and other means of execution in Colonial America.
Still the same self righteous lynch mob herd mentality that the party of tolerance and love lets slip with boring regularity.

Er....to my knowledge that was hanging witches, not burning them.



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14 Aug 2015, 1:09 pm

Raptor wrote:
Quote:
Both white supremacist regimes. And in modern times there's lots of overlap between the people who admire the two and use their imagery.

Apples to oranges comparison. Show me the calculated genocide of millions and the brutal expansion across a continent that would have had to happened by confederate hands in order to make that comparison.

Seriously? How many Africans were kidnapped, enslaved, tortured, and killed over the slave-owning period of American history? And yeah, the Confederates did have dreams of expanding south to take all of Latin America for slaveholding. They never had the resources to do it, but that was their stated goal.


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14 Aug 2015, 1:35 pm

Raptor wrote:
...Show me the calculated genocide of millions and the brutal expansion across a continent that would have had to happened by confederate hands in order to make that comparison.


I am pretty sure Texas broke free from the Mexican government because the latter didn't like slavery.