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0_equals_true
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14 Nov 2015, 1:56 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If the early Islamic thinkers and writers of the Quran were as set on literal thinking as you'd suggest It's more likely that the very idea of the 72 virgins and their description is something that Islam imported from an older and more figurative local tradition without having any idea what it meant. Otherwise, to read it blunt literal, it sounds like the offering is 72 angels to have sex with. That doesn't sound like a suggestion that would go over well in any line of Abrahamic tradition, particularly with any reference to the Enoch narratives.


It doesn't mention 72 virgins in the Quran . Also you are wrong about Abrahamic tradition. You are confusing rule for this lifetime with Heaven. The reality is Heaven is hardly described.

However in Christian (particularly Roman church) teaching heaven is more of a state like Nirvana than a place.

However there is not consistent description.



naturalplastic
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14 Nov 2015, 2:05 pm

sophisticated wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Interesting metaphor.

Does "like a raisin" mean "old and wrinkled".

Or does it mean "dark" (ie racial)? Ethiopians generally are darker than Arabs on the Arabian peninsula.

Of course green grapes turn into yellow raisins. Which are light colored.


Maybe means old and wrinkled .. I don't really know.

But definitely doesn't mean "Ethiopian with a raisin as his head".

Well obviously.
Its says "has a head LIKE a raisin". Doesnt say "raisin as a head".



techstepgenr8tion
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14 Nov 2015, 2:32 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
It doesn't mention 72 virgins in the Quran . Also you are wrong about Abrahamic tradition. You are confusing rule for this lifetime with Heaven. The reality is Heaven is hardly described.

I don't think it was even necessarily believed that there was a life hereafter for a lot of the people living by the OT. I don't know if you checked out what I sent on Flavius Josephus but his mentioning of the curtains of the temple, the shewbread, the candles of the menorah, etc.. - that's a first century CE pagan musing at all the astrological import that the 2nd temple of Jerusalem was built upon. That and technically when people confront cultures who claim to worship the sun, moon, stars, etc.. still they'd always argue that they're not worshiping the physical or visible body of satellites but the principles they believe them to represent. If Judaism could argue that for all of its astrological import that it worshiped one god it was still a religion that built the manifestations of that god on the zodiac and planets - the difference in the two practices seems semantic at best.


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techstepgenr8tion
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14 Nov 2015, 2:39 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Seven is all over the place.

There are seven phases of the moon (even paleolithic man seems to have recognized that). Six if you dont count when the moon is invisible as a "phase", and seven if you do. That universal stone age observation about the moon seems to be the source of the tradition. The Babylonians had a secular system of counting based on six (not exactly base-six, but they counted in sixes). And they had a sacred system based on seven. The first iteration of six is 12, that of seven is 14. Thirteen is out of step with both systems so 13 became the unlucky number.

Jesus asked how "how many times do you forgive someone? Seven times? No. Seven times seven times seven..".

And Muslims seek to go to "seventh heaven".

The opening of verses of the book of Matthew in the NT talks about past prophecy that involves historic periods of "seven generations".


I guess I'd just reassert that almost all of those sevens, if not all, were subsidiary to there being seven luminaries in the sky and if we'd seen eleven it would have been eleven instead. I say almost all because the days in the week may have been an attempt by the Babylonians based on a four-part cycle of the moon.


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yelekam
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14 Nov 2015, 3:18 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
I just wonder with the Islamists and some mebers supporting Sharia law are suicide bombings as a means of being rewarded 72 virgins in the name of allah justified since there are so many Infedels? I am an infedel are you ging to suicide bomb my house?


The type of Islamists that tend to support that tend to part of the militant subgroup of the revivalist subgroup of Islamic Modernists. They tend to pick and choose elements of tradition and past writings that they accept or deny and combine it with ideas they come up with for justifying their goals.



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14 Nov 2015, 3:49 pm

In my opinion the radicalism in Islam, is in part related to sectarianism and tribalism. These leads to neurosis and cultural paranoia, which can be passed between generations, especial in non-secular groups. This is seen as modern problem, however I think it is related to sectarianism that goes back 13 centuries to the battle of Karbala.

This is certainly the case with the Commander of groups like ISIS and Al Quida. It is somewhat different for westerner who are radicalised, however there are trained in this conspiratorial mentality and may have an element of this from their family background.

Although the Ba'athist, Nasserist and Arab Nationalist/Pan-Arab movements were a reaction against the tribalism, instead of the addressing the sectarian divide they enforces rule with an iron fist. You can argue this was just a survival strategy for minority groups rather than genuine attempt at unity, and certainly it was minority rule in practice in the case of Ba'athism. This only encouraged resentment, till it boils over.

So this existential conflict prevails. Western intervention has certainly not helped but it is not the whole story as sometimes suggested.