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OrderAndChaos30
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24 Jul 2008, 5:46 pm

I rule out nothing . . .

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/

This is a most exciting point in history. It appears that reason and logical investigation really is starting to puncture through the limits of the physical and be able to investigate the metaphysical.

I used to be a Fundamentalist Biblical Literalist but the voice of Logic in the back of my mind was, thank the Creator, never fully extinguished. I have had to discover the hard way that those who claim to have FOUND Ultimate Truth or, most blasphemously, claim to BE the INCARNATION of Ultimate Truth are nothing but controlling fear mongers. I have also had personal experience with capabilities of my OWN MIND that would get me declared "demon possessed" if I was to discuss them openly. But I have never dabbled in any sort of so called "occult", if I have ever been devoutly anything I have been devoutly rational!

If HISTORY shows anything it is that the greatest source of EVIL and ATROCITY is indulging in ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. The Nazis where ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN on their rightness in the HOLOCAUST and the Catholics ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of their rightness in the INQUISITION and CRUSADES. In face of the facts there appears to be NO ORGANIZATION that preaches LOVE over FEAR and TERROR. So much for those who claim to follow the great Example of LOVE, HUMILITY and FORGIVENESS - Jesus Christ!

CLOSED MINDED FUNDAMENTALISM IS THE WORST EVIL TO EVER DARKEN THIS PLANET! THEY LYINGLY PREACH LOVE BUT LUST FOR DEATH AND DESTRUCTION AND WANT TO ACTUALLY CAUSE THEIR 'END OF THE WORLD'! !! !! This may seem like a truly extreme opinion but it is based on personal experience and much research.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UF3yb1g30Io
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=UF3yb1g30Io[/youtube]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FXsVKbHY_T0&feature=related
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FXsVKbHY_T0&feature=related[/youtube]



TimT
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24 Jul 2008, 9:15 pm

OrderAndChaos30 wrote:
I have also had personal experience with capabilities of my OWN MIND that would get me declared "demon possessed" if I was to discuss them openly. But I have never dabbled in any sort of so called "occult", if I have ever been devoutly anything I have been devoutly rational!
There can be generational curses passing demons down the family line. I have cleaned up family lines of demons for people.

If you adopted an invisible playmate as a child, that was a demon. If that is your case, you could renounce it and tell it to go away.

There are neurological problems that can cause tics. If that is your case, you could pray to Jesus for Him to neutralize the poisons in your body and escort them out of your body.

If these phenomena started after getting into playing Dungeons & Dragons, you need to renounce the role playing and command any unclean spirits to leave.

If you have done mind-blanking meditation through Hinduism, Buddhism, shamanism or spiritism, you would need to renounce that and command anything to leave.

You are part Christian, so you have the authority.



OrderAndChaos30
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24 Jul 2008, 10:17 pm

TimT wrote:
OrderAndChaos30 wrote:
I have also had personal experience with capabilities of my OWN MIND that would get me declared "demon possessed" if I was to discuss them openly. But I have never dabbled in any sort of so called "occult", if I have ever been devoutly anything I have been devoutly rational!
There can be generational curses passing demons down the family line. I have cleaned up family lines of demons for people.

If you adopted an invisible playmate as a child, that was a demon. If that is your case, you could renounce it and tell it to go away.

There are neurological problems that can cause tics. If that is your case, you could pray to Jesus for Him to neutralize the poisons in your body and escort them out of your body.

If these phenomena started after getting into playing Dungeons & Dragons, you need to renounce the role playing and command any unclean spirits to leave.

If you have done mind-blanking meditation through Hinduism, Buddhism, shamanism or spiritism, you would need to renounce that and command anything to leave.

You are part Christian, so you have the authority.


Thank you for your concern TimT. But no, I have never indulged in any of the things that you discuss. I belong(ed?) to a VERY strict religion on those sort of things. I had an extremely controlled childhood. But I have had a very consistent history of precognition when ever a family member or friend has fallen sick or died starting when I was a small child. I had wrote this off as just some sort of trick of the mind looking back over the years, thinking I may have had edited my own memories in odd ways.

Several years ago I was seeing a mental health professional and stated my belief that these seeming events where somehow edits of my own memory for some strange reason. So in depth investigation for any sign of a cognitive disorder where done. The professional opinion was that I have a very detailed memory and unusually logical mind with no sign of any sort of cognitive disorder.

About 3 years ago I took the opportunity to conduct an impromptu experimental test of one of these incidents, many have been very trivial. I had a very vivid dream, one of those so real you awake in confusion about what is the dream and what is not, and it was about my car breaking down on my way back from work. And that day the car did break down. I found a shop in the city I work in that was able to work on it but I needed to get home. A good friend of mine came and got me and drove me back. I asked him if the cause of the breakdown could have been a certain thing - the cause as in my dream, but I said nothing about the dream. He took me back to get the car the next morning and the cause of the problem was exactly the same as the dream. I confirmed with my friend that I had asked about that cause the day before.

I don't claim anything supernatural about the experiences, no voices or anything odd. Just picking up on something like watching a few short videos on YouTube. Just that the dreams that seem predictive are of unusual intensity. I don't do anything consciously to invoke this to happen and the evidence is there the same if I choose to believe it or not. But the emotional intensity of the event predicted seems to be a factor, the more sudden, unexpected or tragic the event to someone I have a personal connection to the more likely I get a precognition.

This is a personal question I have been contemplating for many years. I know what sorts of accusations would be made if I say anything to other church members so I have kept quiet about this. Could this be evidence that the mind is part of something that plays by the rules of the Quantum Mechanical scale and hence can operate in some way outside of time-space? I do not know. I am acceptant that there is no real answer to these questions at this point. Is there some real science that touches on this area? There seems to be some evidence for that.

Am I about to go off and join or start another New-Age pseudoscience cult? NO. I still trust in the Creator and that he sent his Son as the Great Instructor to the human race. I am going through the process of reconciling the discovery of some facts about my religion that raise very serous questions about an organization of humans on earth, questions about faith in a religious institution, not about God. This is something I will not go into any greater details about.

Finely, in regard to my stance on certainty: I hold that I am a limited and incomplete being and that any thought I may have is also limited and incomplete. So I hold that this logic must be applied to every concept I may hold. I was created with the ability to think rationally and how could God hold it against me that I must apply the same standards to all my thoughts, including those about Him?



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25 Jul 2008, 9:58 am

There is no such thing as majic, magic, majik, madgicke, "The Force", paranormal phenomena, psychic ability, or free parking in downtown Los Angeles.

The universe operates solely on the laws of physics as we know them, and any reasonable extrapolation thereof.

Please check out the websites listed in my signature.


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monty
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25 Jul 2008, 11:17 am

TimT wrote:
If you have done mind-blanking meditation through Hinduism, Buddhism, shamanism or spiritism, you would need to renounce that and command anything to leave.


That's why I don't like to sleep - the mind goes blank, and eventually, into dreams, where strange things can happen.



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25 Jul 2008, 11:29 am

monty wrote:
TimT wrote:
If you have done mind-blanking meditation through Hinduism, Buddhism, shamanism or spiritism, you would need to renounce that and command anything to leave.


That's why I don't like to sleep - the mind goes blank, and eventually, into dreams, where strange things can happen.

Monty, I think you missed the point, which is that TimT is trying to promote his Christian religion. Not that this is a bad thing by itself, but that this particular thread has nothing to do with proselytisation and evangelism, and everything to do with thinking for yourself and making your own informed decisions.


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monty
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25 Jul 2008, 11:36 am

Fnord wrote:
Monty, I think you missed the point, which is that TimT is trying to promote his Christian religion. Not that this is a bad thing by itself, but that this particular thread has nothing to do with proselytisation and evangelism, and everything to do with thinking for yourself and making your own informed decisions.


Maybe ... I thought the purpose was to discuss magic, majick, & mysticism. Some people believe in it (and are for it or against it). Others don't believe in it at all and dismiss it.



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25 Jul 2008, 11:43 am

monty wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Monty, I think you missed the point, which is that TimT is trying to promote his Christian religion. Not that this is a bad thing by itself, but that this particular thread has nothing to do with proselytisation and evangelism, and everything to do with thinking for yourself and making your own informed decisions.

Maybe ... I thought the purpose was to discuss magic, majick, & mysticism. Some people believe in it (and are for it or against it). Others don't believe in it at all and dismiss it.

Well, I certainly fall into that last category. But the underlying issue is to make an informed decision - considering all sides and then deciding for yourself - which is anathema to the Christian religions, because they rely on ignorance and fear to attract and hold onto their members.

Examine all the evidence yourself. Do your own thinking. Make your own choices.


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ouinon
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25 Jul 2008, 11:52 am

calandale wrote:
Graelwyn wrote:
I do not believe in the whole spell, talisman, effigy part...you don't need these things for it, but rather just intent and thought, along with a belief that you are capable.
Tools to help believe enough to actually manage more than you could without them.

That makes sense.

That's exactly why I started binding tobacco leaf and rice paper together again, in a 3-dimensional circle, with water ( saliva), burning this construction and breathing in its smoke, because it en-ables me to go out into the sunlight, something I have been failing completely to do for a long time, and it's working. :D

I think that a lot of people use what would have once been called magic without realising it, because it has become almost banal; the doing of things with no real/apparent purpose, or connection to the desired product, in order to achieve primary goals.

The activities of many many jobs spring to mind. :wink:

.



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25 Jul 2008, 12:29 pm

OrderAndChaos30 wrote:
Thank you for your concern TimT. But no, I have never indulged in any of the things that you discuss. I belong(ed?) to a VERY strict religion on those sort of things. I had an extremely controlled childhood. But I have had a very consistent history of precognition when ever a family member or friend has fallen sick or died starting when I was a small child. I had wrote this off as just some sort of trick of the mind looking back over the years, thinking I may have had edited my own memories in odd ways.

I'm used to this phenomenon. As you know there is no way your conscious or subconscious mind could have known ahead of time what was about to happen in detail. It is not of the Holy Spirit, since you would have had to be a Christian and asked for it to get prophecy. But family curses can show themselves in this way. One book that discusses it is "Christian Counseling & Occultism" by Rev.
Dr. Kurt Koch He takes a rigorously scientific approach to the occult.

When my wife's Jewish mother died, my wife suddenly had those visions like what you are talking about. At my advice, she prayed, "Jesus, if this is from you, thank you for it. But if it is not, please take it away." She never had another vision.
OrderAndChaos30 wrote:
Finely, in regard to my stance on certainty: I hold that I am a limited and incomplete being and that any thought I may have is also limited and incomplete. So I hold that this logic must be applied to every concept I may hold. I was created with the ability to think rationally and how could God hold it against me that I must apply the same standards to all my thoughts, including those about Him?
We need to have our intellectual integrity satisfied without pandering to our intellectual arrogance -- which you see a lot of out here. I sure did. The following link shows my genesis from atheism to Christianity:
Web Page



TimT
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25 Jul 2008, 1:06 pm

monty wrote:
I thought the purpose was to discuss magic, majick, & mysticism. Some people believe in it (and are for it or against it). Others don't believe in it at all and dismiss it.
Right. I just throw in another category. People who spiritually shut down witchcraft that's used against other people.



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25 Jul 2008, 1:16 pm

TimT wrote:
monty wrote:
I thought the purpose was to discuss magic, majick, & mysticism. Some people believe in it (and are for it or against it). Others don't believe in it at all and dismiss it.
Right. I just throw in another category. People who spiritually shut down witchcraft that's used against other people.


No need for another category - you fit in the (believe in it / against it) category. If we need a fourth category, it would be (don't believe in it / not against it) - people that see it all as a psychological exercise that might have some archetypal psychological value, even if it is not true in a literal sense. For example, we all agree that Shakespear's plays and most Hollywood movies are fiction, but we still can derive value from suspending disbelief to watch them.



OrderAndChaos30
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25 Jul 2008, 3:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
There is no such thing as majic, magic, majik, madgicke, "The Force", paranormal phenomena, psychic ability, or free parking in downtown Los Angeles.

The universe operates solely on the laws of physics as we know them, and any reasonable extrapolation thereof.

Please check out the websites listed in my signature.


You seem awfully sure that NATURE has to agree with OUR understanding of cosmic laws . . .

Yet I understand the point you are trying to make. We must _ALWAYS_ be mindful of the difference between what one WANTS to BELIEVE and what the EVIDENCE indicates. I do not intend to put down anyone's point of view but what does it mean when you are asked to close your mind's eyes so you can enjoy grace/enlightenment/spirit/whatever? Seems to almost be some sort of bribe or bate to me.



Last edited by OrderAndChaos30 on 25 Jul 2008, 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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25 Jul 2008, 3:06 pm

OrderAndChaos30 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is no such thing as majic, magic, majik, madgicke, "The Force", paranormal phenomena, psychic ability, or free parking in downtown Los Angeles.

The universe operates solely on the laws of physics as we know them, and any reasonable extrapolation thereof.

Please check out the websites listed in my signature.


You seem awfully sure that Nature has to agree with OUR understanding of cosmic laws . . .

Not at all.

I am awfully sure that our understanding of cosmic laws ("and any reasonable extrapolation thereof") agrees with nature.


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monty
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25 Jul 2008, 3:46 pm

Fnord wrote:
There is no such thing as majic, magic, majik, madgicke, "The Force", paranormal phenomena, psychic ability, or free parking in downtown Los Angeles.


But there is free parking in downtown Los Angeles - not the norm, not something you can count on, but when parking meters break or get stolen, you can park for free. Maybe sometimes the ordinary laws of reality behave in such quirky ways - like in the movie Time Bandits.



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25 Jul 2008, 5:03 pm

monty wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is no such thing as majic, magic, majik, madgicke, "The Force", paranormal phenomena, psychic ability, or free parking in downtown Los Angeles.


But there is free parking in downtown Los Angeles - not the norm, not something you can count on, but when parking meters break or get stolen, you can park for free. Maybe sometimes the ordinary laws of reality behave in such quirky ways - like in the movie Time Bandits.

So then, the possibility exists, but don't count on it. So far I've waited 50+ years for just one demonstration of a real paranormal event ... just one ... :(


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