Do you believe in God?

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William Lane Craig, one of my intellectual heroes, is responsible for those videos, and he actually debated Lawrence Krauss 3 times!! ! Also... Krauss and Dawkins teamed up to pat each other on thee back with a film called "The Unbelievers"... its right up there with "Religious" in terms of "sophistication and intellectual weight."

Once caught Krauss slipping upon his own argument when misquoting the frieddman Omega on the topology of the universe. My eyebrow were raised so high, it hurt. He eventually corrected himself I think.

In other words: You've run out of ideas and/or arguements. Because that sort of line is typically (almost always) said when that happens. I already explained my own logic. Not a single thing you've said gives me even the tiniest reason to follow different logic, particularly as the logic I use is *mine*, and I came up with it over a great many years. And your arguement counters none of it, as one way or another, you STILL have an utter and total lack of evidence (and what kind of person with a scientific viewpoint uses "a lack of evidence" as evidence? That makes so little sense that it makes anti-sense). And honestly? All you've said? I've heard *all* of it before. Over, and over...

But that's not the real issue here.

Frankly, if you dont care if you're being insulting... I'd rather not have you in this conversation, and I doubt I'm alone in that. I seem to recall already mentioning contempt for those that belittle others for their beliefs, yes? Or those that pester others for their beliefs, or that parade their self-declared "superiority" around? (and yes, by declaring your arguement "superior", it's the same as declaring yourself that way, because that's EXACTLY what it implies). That kind of thing is what creates a problem, and it's more than just an issue of this topic. If you honestly cannot see the problem with it... take some time to evaluate your own behavior.

I mean, it's absolutely fine for you to believe what you do. It's absolutely fine for you to approach things with the logic you do, just as it's fine for me to approach things with my own logic. There's nothing at all wrong with any of that, and as with any of us, you have your own personal reasons and logic that cause you to do so. But the moment you start telling others how much better you and your arguements are, when the reality is that NONE of us can provide concrete proof of a damn thing... well...

Just stop, before you cause a REAL arguement. One way or another, you arent doing any convincing here. If you want people to listen to you, you're going about it the wrong way.

Really, I get VERY bloody tired of watching either atheists OR religious types do this. I mean, really, it's almost like you pulled out a script or something... that's how similar this is to every other time I've heard this and gotten or seen that reaction.

And no, I'm NOT going to get sucked into such an arguement with you. Try to do so, or try to insult me or others, and you'll simply be ignored. Well, at least by me anyway, though I do advise that the others avoid arguing as well. And if that seems childish, well, as I said... I've done this all before, and as you're basically reading from a script here, I already have seen what's most likely to come next. Or, at the very least, I've definitely seen that particular attitude, and dealt with it so many times before. Not doing that YET AGAIN.

....also I just dont want to see yet another actual damn arguement about this topic. Half the damn internet has that going on. Dont need it here. And I tired of forum arguements long ago anyway.

Ok, so, that earlier bit being done with, I'm going to latch onto this bit here, because I want to see what happens...

In particular, I'd like to see Marcob0t's response to this one, but anyone that does have the belief in God can answer this (it doesnt make a whole lot of sense for someone without that belief to answer it within the context I'm giving here).

But anyway, that bit there brings up a simple question: Assuming, for the sake of this making sense, that God exists, and that God created the universe.... what created God?

This bit has always fascinated me, because no matter how you view things, religious or otherwise, *all* paths will eventually lead to this core conundrum: An effect with no cause. In some form or another. In this case, as silly as this may sound on paper (shut up, I'm calling it paper, dammit!) "God" is essentially the effect, but... what is the cause?

There, I've posed my slightly bizarre question.

Again, I'm not trying to counter anyone's belief in God here, or belief in... anything. This is out of my own genuine curiosity. I just want to see what you guys think about that one.


EDIT: And before someone mentions that the path of pure science DOESNT lead to that conundrum because "We all know the universe was caused by the Big Bang" or something like that, the automatic response I'd give is: "Okay, so what caused THAT then?" and that question would then repeat itself over and over, until.... you get to that conundrum.

If the universe did not create itself out of nothing, as can be attested by the paper's argument, and our universe exists (we know this, as our reality exists), then that argument is meaningless.

Yeah, I agree with Misery on this one. And I honestly don't have the energy or interest to debate with people. That's not why posted on this thread. I don't mind people asking me more honest questions or trying to understand where I come from.

But I'm not interested in arguing with people over words, semantics, and logic debates. Not at this point in life. And AspE, I simply have met Jesus in faith, and have many memories of all the good He had worked on my life and heart.

If that's not enough for you, seek God, and read Scripture yourself. Or go and believe whatever you want. But I don't feel obligated to argue and debate this with you when you display such arrogance. It would be pointless for me to do so.

I'm more interested in living a life of love rather than arguing about it.

Hi Misery,

I will try to get around to answering your post tomorrow. It is a very interesting discussion that I truly do not have all the answers to. But maybe some ideas to share both scientific and religious.

Have a good night,
marcb0t

Well, my main question was just: If God created the universe (or whatever), what created God? Or what allows for the lack of something creating him?

I mean, one way or another, eventually, this question is encountered. Or some variation of it. For the non-religious, it could be phrased "If no entity created the universe, what did?". There's many forms in which the question might exist.

Again, I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm just honestly curious as to what everyone's answer to this question... whatever you may think it is... might be.

...or IS that your answer?

Forgive me, but I can be more than a bit dense at times. I'll admit I"m not entirely grasping what you said there. Something about it throws me off a bit. It happens alot.



Eh, no rush. It's a forum after all: everyone just responds whenever they happen to have a chance. I'm about to get to bed myself as it is. Bloody long day.

Yes I believe in God.
The Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The reason wee don't have to ask the question"who created God?" is because God is thought to be a necessary being and not a contingent being (like ourselves and the Universe). The first video I posted addressees this question really well.

Thank you for the link to that paper Deltaville... reading now.. very interesting... I love physics, but I am a layman... still enjoyable to muse on. By the way, fi you aree interested in listening to WLC debate Krauss there are plenty of recordings on youtube (if you can stand to listen to Krauss' epic and continuous interruptions) hehe Also, William lane Craig had a very high level discussion with top physicist Sean Carrol that was vastly fascinating.
I love to listen to his debates... he is a like a knight in shining armor... God's Lawyer... the intellectual antidote to the new atheists like Dawkins, Shermer, Hitchens, Harris, etc...

Also, another intellectual champion of apologetics is John Lennox... who has also engaged in critical thought with the leading atheist thinkers.

Whatever. I was making a critical point on the flaws of agnosticism, and people get all defensive, as if I was attacking them personally. I guess you just can't talk to some people. Wishful thinking was a term I applied to religion, as religion is based on faith, which is like a fact you wish to be true, but which isn't actually supported by evidence.

And by the way, lack of evidence (where evidence should be expected) is a perfectly valid way to do science.

William Lane Craig's critique of agnosticism:

And that's commonly referred to as "special pleading", a way to avoid a difficult question by defining your way out of it. If God can be eternal and not require a cause, then certainly a universe could do the same thing, especially an infant universe which wasn't inherent complex like a God. A complex thing is less likely to arise spontaneously than a simple thing.

Last edited by AspE on 04 Mar 2016, 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

He's right in this sense; if the evidence for god is wrong, it doesn't prove god doesn't exist. Yes, but such a point is almost trivial. In daily life, we never use that standard to determine what to believe. If the evidence that shows vaccines cause autism is all wrong, it doesn't mean that vaccines can't cause autism. We haven't tested every combination of chemicals on every genetic variant of a person (and could never do so in the lifetime of the universe). But since there is no evidence that any known vaccine causes autism, it's reasonable to hold the belief that vaccines don't cause autism.

did you watch the first video I linked? It more clearly elaborates on the 'slogan' I used in that comment. The second and third videos are great for supplementing thee first as well. Personally, I think of it more like defining your way *into it... not out of it... I think that the problem involves the stigma about the word "God"... because it means so much.... its hard for people to align definitions, because,to borrow from Leibniz, everyone's "monad" with respect to word is so different. My greatest passions are philosophy, religion/spirituality, and mysticism. I feel compelled to write a book in which I try to communicate the thread I see that runs through all religions and even philosophies for that matter.