Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism

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I'm anti-Jewish supremacy (anti-zionism).

"Semitic" pertains to an area in the Middle East, and various peoples of that area.

That the word has been appropriated by one of those groups and is used to support Zionism etc doesn't make it accurate.

Indeed. It is a fact that I wanted to state earlier, but saw no ready opportunity (not that a lack of opportunity has ever stopped me). Hehe!

It's not an irrelvant question at all. Do you or do you not condemn the nearly-million Jews that were kicked out of Middle Eastern countries or not?



Can you actually prove that the Arabs were kicked out by the Zionists? You can't, because it didn't happen that way.

It seems that Arabs left their homes for a variety of reasons - many left, some fled, some (but not all) were expelled. The fact is that not a single refugee would have happened had the Arabs taken the initiative and accepted the 1947 partition plan as offered by the Jews. An indigenous Jewish state on the one hand, and an Arab state on the other.

The original plans would have given the Jews a tiny state, and wouldn't have given them charge of Jerusalem, their holiest city. The Arabs said no, because they wanted it all. They wanted it all because they could not tolerate the idea of Jews having a presence in the Middle East.






As I said - they left for a variety of reasons. Some Arabs did fear what the Jews might do to them, but the ones who stayed (many did stay - that's why Israel's population is 20% Arab, after all - how many Jews - Israeli or not - are allowed to live in the Palestinian Authority or Hamas areas again?) found that the Jews weren't interested in massacring them as they had feared, but in living side by side instead.



Literally no-one but a few extremist ideologues (and what the Palestinians tell their own people) believes that Jews are not indigenous to the Land of Israel.

Old Jewish culture is literally everywhere you look in Israel. We're talking coins, tombs, old artifacts, temples and so on. The Jews have lived in the Land of Israel for 3,000 years.

Are you going to tell me that Jesus is Palestinian now?

Next you'll be claiming that the Mayans aren't indigenous to Mexico, or the Quechua aren't indigenous to Peru.



No, it is very relevant. Literally, many of the Arabs in Palestine are not Palestinians from the area - they have come from Egypt (the surname "al-Masri" means "the Egyptian"), Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, even the Gulf countries.

Yasser Arafat, that famous murdering scumbag, himself was not a Palestinian. He was, like many Palestinians, actually of Egyptian origin and was born in Cairo.

I'd never heard of israeladvocacy.net. That's a new one on me. I do sometimes read Daniel Pipes but not often. I think he's a good man. I like reading the likes of Khaled Abu Toameh, who is an Israeli Arab that frequently reports from the territories. One thing he does say is that many Palestinians are actually less hostile to him and his reporting than the left-wing anti-Zionist Westerners are.

It's very clear that you hate Israel though. Why, I'm not sure.



Not irrelevant. Facts.

The British put limits on immigration to Mandatory Palestine in order not to upset the Arabs. The returning Jews were facing persecution in Europe, and were looking to flee to anywhere that offered them safety.

The British hated the idea of there actually being a Jewish state - they wanted the entire Mandate to go to Jordan, because they were best buddies with the Jordanian royal family. The Jews were fighting both the British and the Arabs in order to establish their state.

Zionism was a true national liberation movement, much like the Irish had in fighting for independence from Britain.

Facts, skysaw. Facts.



"Zio-sites"? Now you're coming across as a bit Stormfrontish.

No, the fact that they take extreme care not to harm civilians - more so than any other Western army would - as documented by international observers makes them good in my eyes.

The general population in Gaza is not the enemy - it is under the boot of Islamic fascists that use them as pawns.

As former Colonel Richard Kemp said (probably another Zionazi in your eyes): the IDF is the most moral army in the world, more so even than the British Army. They sometimes make mistakes like any army, but their main concern is for human life - both Israeli and Palestinian. Killing the bad guys

Indeed, the High Level Military Group - a non-partisan panel made up of army personnel from several different Western countries - state that Israel's conduct in Gaza is so moral and with such care for human life that Western armies worry that they will not be able to match Israel's standards if ever they have to go to war in their own backyards.

Facts are awkward things.



I don't think the State of Israel has any taboos against racial intermarriage. There are social taboos, but they exist in both the Jewish and Arab populations and Israelis are rather liberal on the subject of intermarriage compared to Arab countries. Neither wants to see 'their' women marry into another group (try being an Arab Muslim woman from an Arab community who wants to marry a Jew!). This is unfortunate, but it's the nature of conflict.

As for the DNA testing of immigrants - I have no problem with them proving that they are Jewish, whether by DNA testing or other documentation. As I said.

What racial segregation in schooling are you on about? I don't know that much about the schooling system in Israel. There are a few integrated schools in Israel, although not as many as I would like. As far as I can tell, unfortunately most of the population - Jewish and Arab - want to educate their children in separate schools.



You're thinking I would necessarily attack European countries for having similar policies. I wouldn't. I think it's perfectly OK that a country is allowed to check who are their citizens and who aren't. Just because European countries are currently suicidal, doesn't mean that Israel should let in any Ethiopian immigrant that asks.

Next!



Many of the Arabs cannot prove that they ever lived there.

As I said, it's unfortunate that many of the Palestinian Arabs left their homes. That is the wages of war, unfortunately.

The Palestinian Arab vision is not reasonable, because it entails destroying a country in order to do it.

Now, when will the Arab countries give compensation to the Jews that lost their homes?



But it wasn't their former home, was it? It was their current home.

Israel is the home of the Jewish people. Not former. Current.



Not particularly. My dislike of Islam has nothing to do with my support for the State of Israel. I believe in self-determination for all peoples. If the whole of Ireland wanted independence tomorrow, I would support it. (I'm a Unionist by the way.)

I don't think of myself as a Nazi - I consider myself a classical liberal eurosceptic.



I've been a UKIP member for seven years. I wasn't interested in Israel at all until a few years ago.



I'm happy to talk about those things too. I will be leafleting for the Leave side in the referendum, and I have local council election leafleting for UKIP to be doing soon.

Last edited by B19 on 04 Apr 2016, 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.: personal attack

Because I believe in the self-determination of all peoples. Jews and Arabs.



Israel wasn't created because of the Holocaust. It was created because of a desire for Jews to return home. That it acted as a safe haven for dispossessed Jews is a side effect.

You forget, also, the persecution of Jews in Arab countries. There was also the Farhud massacre in Iraq, and the kicking out of all the Jews in Arab countries which is not talked about.

Half of the Jewish population of Israel comes from Arab countries. Israel acted as a safe haven for them.



The Arabs are not indigenous to the land. The Jews are.

In fact, many of the Arabs had immigrated to the region not long before the State of Israel was founded. There was both Jewish and Arab immigration during the Mandate.

Fifty years earlier, before the Mandate, the Land of Israel was virtually empty of people. There were always Jews living there.



In your example, the Jewish people most clearly represent the Indian tribes.

Remember: the Arabs were colonisers and imperialists. See my avatar.



It can quite easily be resolved if their leaders ready their people for peace. Stop the incitement (if you think I'm joking about the horrific things the Arabs teach their people, feel free to look it up). There can then be a two-state solution (as there should have been at the time of the Peel Commission) and everyone can live happily ever after.

Israeli Arabs live more or less happy lives in the safety of Israel's liberal democracy. The Palestinian Arabs can have the same freedom and prosperity if only they choose it.

Choose peace and freedom instead of war and hate. Stop idolising death and 'martyrdom'. Stop fetishising the idea of conquering Israel and killing every last Jew, as the Hamas Charter dictates.

Let's love each other.

Self-determination meaning claiming land because of heritage?

Well, if the reason for displacing the current inhabitants was because the Jews claim it as there's, that's ridiculous. Old claims shouldn't be valid. If it was because there was no where else for them to go, then that's understandable. Although displacing current residents is a wrong, just as the Holocaust was.

No, because they are indigenous to the Land.

To give you another example: imagine if the Mayans had been displaced from Mexico, and the Mexican Spaniards took their place. They're still Mayan, just not physically in Mexico. The Jews yearned to return home over the centuries, and when they were finally able to, they did.

The Arabs are not indigenous. Their armies conquered the Land.

The British were not indigenous to Ireland, for example.



Why?

There's no time limit on being indigenous.



One thing that isn't pointed out is that most of the Arabs that were displaced that had come through illegal immigration hadn't been in Palestine for very long. Before the Mandate the area was nearly empty.

There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for many years.

I see the discussion has once again degenerated into a predictable "who was there first" skirmish...

As such, I would like to point of the following:





Or, for a somewhat more philosophical - and less facetious - exposition:

Source: Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 63

It would be nice if Israel could become an international state. I think the Christians have a stake in the region too. And we all have a connection to the Ancient Near East as part of human civilization. It could be run by a government that represented all three religions.

I don't dispute that the Arabs have had a very long presence there too, so they should not be mistreated in any way or kicked out of the region, but they are not the indigenous residents.

The rights of the indigenous trump the rights of those who have merely occupied the region for a long time.

What needs to happen is that there needs to be peace for everyone - Arabs living in Israel, and Jews living in Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinian Authority and Hamas need to die. They are both evil.

As I say, Jews and Arabs need to live together, work together, socialise together, love together. But we have to recognise that Jews have the right to all of the Land - including the farthest, most Arab point in Judea and Samaria.

Last edited by Tequila on 05 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like, under the UN you mean?

The UN would run away, just like they have done in every other conflict. They are cowards.

If you want to preserve rights for all, you have to accept a Jewish state. Everyone can get access to their holy sites.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if Jews could pray at the Temple Mount? But no, they can't because they have "filthy feet".

^This is the part I don't understand. I would think the reverse. That the current residents take precedence over the historical residents.

The point that I made is that most of the Arabs were not historical residents either. They are both not indigenous and recent residents. They came because the incoming Jews built the land and brought prosperity to Palestine. They literally turned a barren desert into a lovely garden.

There was a small number of both Arabs and Jews before the Mandate, when the area was nearly empty. The Jews have always had a presence in Israel.

We can see what happens when, in Gaza, the Palestinians are gifted a cottage industry full of greenhouses all of their own by Israel. They destroy them, and aim rockets at Israel.

Anyway, the point of it all is rather moot - the Israelis have successfully defended the land in numerous wars, and they are the ones that currently run their region. So it really is all rather moot.

Ahistorical BS. Israelis often bulldoze existing Palestinian olive groves just to f**k with them and take their land. How do you think Arabs made a living except from farming?

European Jews are not indigenous to Palestine.