Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Muslims say; religious freedom for me, but not for thee.

Page 4 of 11 [ 167 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 11  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

01 Mar 2017, 7:11 pm

feral botanist wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
[.


I would not put much faith in the analysis of U. S. security organizations as they are biased, -- as can be seen from the U.S. being so close and friendly with one of the worst human rights offenders in the world. Saudi Arabia.

Regards
DL


Really? Then who would you trust for an analysis of the security for the US?

You say that you want better vetting o immigrants, but you say you dont trust DHS or any of the other US security agencies.
Who would you have do this vetting?


I do not recall talking about vetting, but that vetting is done by your intelligence agencies who have been in bed with Saudi Arabia forever and I just do not think you should put much faith in what they are doing.

Lately in how they handled the Clinton E mail and the Russia into the Democratic computer thing should be shaking your faith just a wee bit.

Regards
DL



K_Kelly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2014
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,452

01 Mar 2017, 7:13 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Is this something all muslims say or is this an example of a blanket generalization based on the worst of muslims?

In the U.S we have christians actually trying to push religious legislation, I am more concerned about that than muslims in this country. Yet I still do not think all Christians want to impose their beliefs though enough do to be making political noise about it though.

We can't just pick and chose what religions religious freedom applies to, what do you suggest we keep freedom of religion but exclude muslims?


Yes, because christians are WORSE than muslims :roll:



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

01 Mar 2017, 7:15 pm

K_Kelly wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Is this something all muslims say or is this an example of a blanket generalization based on the worst of muslims?

In the U.S we have christians actually trying to push religious legislation, I am more concerned about that than muslims in this country. Yet I still do not think all Christians want to impose their beliefs though enough do to be making political noise about it though.

We can't just pick and chose what religions religious freedom applies to, what do you suggest we keep freedom of religion but exclude muslims?


Yes, because christians are WORSE than muslims :roll:

In the US, I feel more likely to have laws passed by dominionist christians than by shari-fixated muslims. As a practical matter, christians pose the bigger threat to individual liberty by a mile.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


K_Kelly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2014
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,452

01 Mar 2017, 7:17 pm

That's the nastiest thing I ever had to hear, sorry. And I'm not even that big on Christians legislating social matters either.



feral botanist
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: in the dry land

01 Mar 2017, 7:20 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Muslims say; religious freedom for me, but not for thee.

The Golden Rule and other reciprocity sayings indicate that what we grant ourselves or some others should also be granted to everyone. This would include the right to critique religions and governments.

Islam and it’s Muslim adherents are quite vocal in denigrating other religions and political system, yet say that others who denigrate Islam and Sharia should be penalized in various ways, --- even unto death.

Where I come from, reciprocity is fair play and all players in a game play by the same rules. Islam and Muslims wants to win the God wars by having different restrictive rules for their interlocutors.

Should we respect and tolerate a religion that denies us the rights and play by the same rules that they enjoy?

If yes, please tell me why we should respect such a religion.

Regards
DL



To which Muslim or group of Muslims are you refering?

I could make the claim that trump supporters are racist, and although some are, there are many who would be offended by that generalization.

This represent the logical fallacy of the strawman argument.


You might want to revue the meaning of terms before using them incorrectly.

But the simple answer is that you are judged by who you stand with.

If you stand with those who are considered to have certain character traits, then you will be seen as having them or supporting them.

Regards
DL


Terms? You mean strawman?


Strawman-exaggerating, misrepresenting or fabricating someones arguement, it becomes much easier to seem reasonable.

Like how you chracterized all muslims as intolerant so you could claim to be following the golden rule?

If you are who you stand with, then all catholics are pedophiles, all christains are people who murder abortion doctors (Dougars -pedophile), all mormons are polygamist pedophiles, all muslims are terrorists and all republicans are orange p**** grabbers.

The logic of your argument is suspect.


You used the term racist right after mentioning Muslims. You also mentioned it in this post as well.

Muslims are not a race.

Regards
DL


Yes and it is quite clearly in a sentance about trump supporters :roll:



feral botanist
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: in the dry land

01 Mar 2017, 7:25 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Farunel wrote:
I haven't done enough research on Muslims to say anything directed at their religion in particular. But yes. Your original statement is true. If a religion is found to be intolerant of others (Or at least a great number of them), then they deserve no tolerance of them.

We do need to think about the grey zone. What of the innocents associated with said religion? You can't tell me there are none, because that would be impossible. Should they be treated with the same intolerance as their intolerant brethren? Or should we do something else. If so, what would we do? A legitimate question, not a criticism.


I think all we can do is show our intolerance to theirs. Reciprocity is fair play.

It is then to the innocent to reform their religion or get out of it because staying in it reinforces it and hinders reform.

Secular resistance and internal forces is what brought Christianity to heel and made it palatable to our civilization.

If Islam is immune to those and continue to attack the West and kill our people, the West will have little choice but to destroy Islam utterly and completely.

Regards
DL



Didnt you mentionthe golden rule in the OP?

And now you are writing about reciprocity...hmmm, those seem to be contradictory principles.

So if we accept reciprosity, then you are ok if they do drone stikes in the US?


The Golden Rule is a reciprocity rule.

To your question.
Yes. And they have in the sense that the planes they drove into the Twin Towers were manned drones.

Did you expect some other answer?

Regards
DL


Golden rule - do on to others as you would have them do to you. Its in thenew testament

Reciprosity - an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, old testament.

9/11 were Saudis and a Pakistan, if I remember correctly and not any of the 7 countries listed in trumps Muslim ban. Itis almostlike there issome other reason.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

01 Mar 2017, 7:25 pm

K_Kelly wrote:
That's the nastiest thing I ever had to hear, sorry. And I'm not even that big on Christians legislating social matters either.

This shows the conservative value of loyalty. No criticism of the ingroup is tolerated, no matter how tempered. Not everyone takes it to such an extreme.

It's not as though I have overwhelming fears of either, or particularly bad feelings toward either group. I know more about christian religious intolerance personally, and I personally know people who would never vote for someone who didn't intend to push for christian values to become law, with the exception of most of the Jesus-based ones.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


feral botanist
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: in the dry land

01 Mar 2017, 7:28 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
[.


I would not put much faith in the analysis of U. S. security organizations as they are biased, -- as can be seen from the U.S. being so close and friendly with one of the worst human rights offenders in the world. Saudi Arabia.

Regards
DL


Really? Then who would you trust for an analysis of the security for the US?

You say that you want better vetting o immigrants, but you say you dont trust DHS or any of the other US security agencies.
Who would you have do this vetting?


I do not recall talking about vetting, but that vetting is done by your intelligence agencies who have been in bed with Saudi Arabia forever and I just do not think you should put much faith in what they are doing.

Lately in how they handled the Clinton E mail and the Russia into the Democratic computer thing should be shaking your faith just a wee bit.

Regards
DL



Im sorry, I confused your posts with Jacoby.

Not saying that I do or do not have faithin the DHS and othersecurity agencies.



GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

01 Mar 2017, 7:31 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
So, will a full Muslim ban satisfy you, or should we also round up and expel everyone who professes Islam?


I would prefer that Muslims reform Islam and their Sharia to a more moral ideology that is compatible to what the rest of the free world has.

That reform should begin with equality under the law.

Regards
DL

I share that preference, but I don't see the measures I asked about as the logical alternative.

Also, this preoccupation with people emigrating to the US in order to impose Sharia confounds me. People emigrate to the US to escape Sharia, in its local incarnation. There is no great book of Sharia Law; it has lots of local variations.

Now, with regard to foreign policy, I have gone on a long time about our weird fascination with authoritarian regimes. Every time I hear about us making alliances with another one, I warn that it will backfire just like the others have. Democratic Muslim-majority countries are improving, with regard to their human rights, largely no thanks to US policy.

ahem, Putin, ahem


I really don't know what the final solution will look like.

The U.S. wants a melting pot while Canada wants a mosaic.

We in Canada are getting our mosaic and crating ghettos. The U.S. melting pot is creating even more ghettoes and no-go zones than Canada.

In the meantime both countries are spouting off about our diversity being our strength while all they are showing is division and weakness.

I guess our first step should be to decide what we want and initiate the steps to get there.

Some say that women destroy nations because of their poor in group loyalty to their own people. Perhaps we should ask all of our women to marry out of their race. That may be the only way to eventually have fully integrated people of who knows what color. That might be a hard sell but perhaps not to the author of this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpVwBzFAkw

That or get rid of our war mongering male leaders and put women in charge. They are better at peacemaking than men. We had 20,000 years of relative peace under the Goddesses, then switched to Gods of war and now have had 5,000 years of war that shows little sign of ending.

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

01 Mar 2017, 7:41 pm

To those comparing Christianity to Islam.

Have a chuckle, if you can, on me.



Regards
DL



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

01 Mar 2017, 7:52 pm

Worst choice of words ever, in that first sentence


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

01 Mar 2017, 8:37 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Worst choice of words ever, in that first sentence


Chastisement without correction shows hate.

Show your love with a suggestion so that this Frenchman might improve his English.

Regards
DL



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

01 Mar 2017, 8:42 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Worst choice of words ever, in that first sentence


Chastisement without correction shows hate.

Show your love with a suggestion so that this Frenchman might improve his English.

Regards
DL

Not at all. I didn't quote you because I assumed it would be obvious at a second look, since I didn't notice problems with your English. 'Final solution' is the usual English translation for the term the Nazis used in their concentration camp policy papers, so using it with regard to the current situation will just look bad.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


GnosticBishop
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Nov 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686

01 Mar 2017, 8:47 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Worst choice of words ever, in that first sentence


Chastisement without correction shows hate.

Show your love with a suggestion so that this Frenchman might improve his English.

Regards
DL

Not at all. I didn't quote you because I assumed it would be obvious at a second look, since I didn't notice problems with your English. 'Final solution' is the usual English translation for the term the Nazis used in their concentration camp policy papers, so using it with regard to the current situation will just look bad.


I though you meant my last post.

Strange that you would associate what I put with something from old Nazis days. That never entered my mind and I do not even remember that term.

Regards
DL



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

01 Mar 2017, 9:27 pm

It will come across that way, and glaringly so in the context of your other remarks. I half thought you had used the term deliberately, but that would just be silly...


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,828
Location: Twin Peaks

01 Mar 2017, 9:36 pm

feral botanist wrote:
Nice! You hit the trifecta! 3 logical fallacies in one post.
Strawman
Ad hominem
Tu quoque

:lol:


You're hiding behind a system you really don't seem to grasp very well, instead of actually listening to what's being said. That along with a pattern of continually pointing out to everyone how skilled you think you are and what you perceive as their fallacies. I can certainly understand if you have developed tactics like these in trying to stay ahead of NT's, but you don't really need them as much or at all here. This is a place where you can actually fit in if you let yourself.