Is Islam a denomination of Christianity?

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Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2018, 12:50 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Lintar wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Probably the closest existing Christian denomination today to Islam is Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Okay, first of all, Muslims believe in an afterlife. It says as much in their book, the Quran. Jehovah's Witnesses reject the afterlife entirely. They do not accept the concept of hell, and whilst they believe there is a heaven, only 144,000 get to go there.
Muslims do not believe Christ was the son of God, Jehovah's Witnesses do. Jehovah's Witnesses are extreme pacifists, Muslims the exact opposite. JW's avoid politics and war, and one cannot be a member of their organisation if one is either a soldier or politician.
About the only thing they have in common is that they reject the concept of the trinity. That's it.

Then why JWs refer themselves as NonTrinitarians? This is so confusing.

As I understand it, JW's don't believe Jesus was also God, just his son.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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08 Mar 2018, 1:23 pm

Anyway, this is a video on the Muslim’s belief of “Muslims before Mohammad”:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8x--RH967U

According to this guy, Muslims view Arianism as form of an old “Islam”; check at around 32:00 or so.

naturalplastic
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08 Mar 2018, 2:21 pm

Named after the bishop Orian of Alexandria, Arianism was one of the many rival forms of Christianity that vied in the Roman Empire. It was nontrinitarian Christianity (Jesus was a prophet, but not himself divine). Many of the Barbarians from beyond the northern frontiers of the Roman Empire converted from Paganism to Arianism.

When Islam appeared in the Six Centurey AD in Arabia (far south of the Roman Empire) it was actually viewed by the orthodox Christian churches as "just another form of Arianims (ie a type of Christian heresy)" according my old college text book.

Apparently by the ten and eleven hundreds AD (when they started the Crusades)both Christianity and Islam had come to view each as separate religions (rather than as heretical sects of each other).

Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2018, 2:58 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

It was just that difference in brands of Christianity that made manay of the Barbarian invaders remain the other, as opposed to the largely Roman Catholicism of most Romans. It was this continuing religious hostility that had contributed to the eventual failure of the Ostrogoths and Vandals to hold onto their territorial gains in Italy and North Africa. Those Barbarians who successfully held onto their territorial gains and flourished were the Franks in Gaul, Belgium, and the Rhineland, who had converted to Catholicism straight from paganism, and the Visigoths in Spain, after they had converted from Arianism to Catholicism.

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Lintar
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08 Mar 2018, 6:37 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Lintar wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Probably the closest existing Christian denomination today to Islam is Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Then why JWs refer themselves as NonTrinitarians? This is so confusing.

Why is that confusing? Yes, they are NON-trinitarians, which means they reject the concept of the trinity. That's what I said, didn't I?

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08 Mar 2018, 6:39 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Lintar wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Probably the closest existing Christian denomination today to Islam is Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Then why JWs refer themselves as NonTrinitarians? This is so confusing.

As I understand it, JW's don't believe Jesus was also God, just his son.

Exactly. He is not "co-equal" (I think that's the correct term) with what Catholics and other trinitarians would refer to as "the Father". He is subordinate to God, not God.

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08 Mar 2018, 6:41 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Interesting, but I thought Arianism had vanished during the 4th century due to (among other things) the persecution of the "official" Roman church. Will have to look into it.

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08 Mar 2018, 6:50 pm

Lintar wrote:

Exactly. He is not "co-equal" (I think that's the correct term) with what Catholics and other trinitarians would refer to as "the Father". He is subordinate to God, not God.

I guess that makes sense.

In some parts of the New Testament, Jesus actually prays to God. When Jesus was being crucified, he actually begged God to be merciful towards the people who were killing him.

This does not make sense if Jesus is merely a divine Avatar. In fact, the New Testament seems to strongly imply that Jesus is subordinate to God.

I'm guessing that the Holy Trinity was invented by Catholic authorities during the Early Christian Era.

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08 Mar 2018, 7:03 pm

Christianity and Islam can be called a denomination of Judaism

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08 Mar 2018, 7:05 pm

Goldilocks wrote:

Christianity and Islam can be called a denomination of Judaism

Yes.

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08 Mar 2018, 7:45 pm

and judaism can be called.....judaism is just a remix beetween different pagan religions...

Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2018, 8:34 pm

Lintar wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Interesting, but I thought Arianism had vanished during the 4th century due to (among other things) the persecution of the "official" Roman church. Will have to look into it.

Arianism had actually survived into the 6th century among the Visigoths of Spain.

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08 Mar 2018, 8:43 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Lintar wrote:

Exactly. He is not "co-equal" (I think that's the correct term) with what Catholics and other trinitarians would refer to as "the Father". He is subordinate to God, not God.

Trinitarian theology of Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox agree that while Christ was equal to God the Father, when he assumed a human body and nature, he gave up that equality in order to live by God's law, but suffer under the wrath of that very same law for the rest of humanity. Hence Christ crying out to God the Father on the cross, till he regained equality to the Father with his death and resurrection.

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09 Mar 2018, 6:53 am

...The last time I went to church - a liberal Episcopalian one, High Church - the minister said something to that effect - Though I don't-t think he said "denomination ", but IIRC he said more than the " Abrahamic religion " comment that's been frequently made since 9-11. The same Sunday, that service memorialized Billy Graham, that was the first that I heard of his death IIRC, and included, in memory of him, Graham's favorite hymn Graham, I presume, would have very strongly disagreed with this idea! Or would he?

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09 Mar 2018, 4:13 pm

white_as_snow wrote:

and judaism can be called.....judaism is just a remix beetween different pagan religions...

It was a sect of Canaanism most probably, descended from those who became radically favoring the leader Canaanite god "El" over others , until becoming totally monotheists.

Quote:

Cosmology
None of the inscribed tablets found in 1929 in the Canaanite city of Ugarit (destroyed ca. 1200 BC) has revealed a cosmology. Any idea of one is often reconstructed from the much later Phoenician text by Philo of Byblos (c. 64–141 AD), after much Greek and Roman influence in the region.

According to the pantheon, known in Ugarit as 'ilhm (=Elohim) or the children of El, supposedly obtained by Philo of Byblos from Sanchuniathon of Berythus (Beirut) the creator was known as Elion, who was the father of the divinities, and in the Greek sources he was married to Beruth (Beirut = the city). This marriage of the divinity with the city would seem to have Biblical parallels too with the stories of the link between Melqart and Tyre; Chemosh and Moab; Tanit and Baal Hammon in Carthage, Yah and Jerusalem.

From the union of El Elyon and his consort were born Uranus and Ge, Greek names for the "Heaven" and the "Earth".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_C ... e_religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

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09 Mar 2018, 4:27 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Apparently, European Christian leaders at the time saw Islam as a heresy of Christianity, rather than a separate religion. Of course, they told the illiterate masses that Islam was a pagan religion of goat worship.

It was sometimes played the other way around too. There are Spanish accounts of raiding the English coast in the decades after the Church of England was founded. They talk about burning "mosques", which were of couarse actually churches. To those Catholic sailors, Protestant heretic = infidel = Muslim.

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