Sargon of Akkad and the Dirty Smear Merchants, Vegan Feminis

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The joke was funny though. I don't make rape jokes personally, but I can still find them funny and I'm sure I'm not the only one. We shouldn't be punishing people for jokes.

I don't know if there's anything more to be said though. I don't expect Sargon to win, and if his political involvement with UKIP ends there it will probably be detrimental to UKIP. But if he's in it for the long haul, I think there's hope of long term gain. His party is backing him despite all the negative attention and people saying they're leaving because of him. If nothing else, Sargon adds weight to UKIP support of free speech.

I don't care about rape jokes or racist jokes but many people do and they wont want a politician saying them. Its not about free speech its about manners and common decency. UKIP already supported free speech people who are on the fence on free speech are not going to be won over by Sargon more likely they will care less about it.

But Sargon has manners and common decency in abundance, he'll sit down with any opponent and treat them with respect.

I know you're concerned about optics, but you're never going to get good optics with the mainstream media. You're just playing into their hands.

I know the MSM will always try to portray its opponents in a bad light and often succeeds but Sargon is portraying himself terrible. Optics do matter. The only positive thing to come out of this will be when Metokur makes a video about it.

Think it's a bit of a double standard to complain about a few members of a group making a pun (the chant was "pigs in blankets", not "cops") and by association suggesting that all anti-racists are pro-murder, while simultaneously complaining that "I wouldn't even rape you" to someone complaining about being sent rape threats is merely a jest and couldn't reasonably be inferred to be intimidating.

Literal Nazis in UKIP - Tommy Robinson, Paul Joseph Watson, Mark Meechan, and at this point I'm going to safely say Batten due to his appointment of Robinson and willingness to associate with the likes of Watson, Meechan, and Lauren Southern. Indeed, if a UKIP member is happy to attend a rally where Batten invites Robinson to speak then I'm happy to call them a Nazi.


The media haven't done a number on me. I'm just familiar with what the man has said and done.

Difficult to actually interpret your post so I'm going to put your responses side-by-side with mine.

me: he's called people "white n*****s",
you: Not quite. He told them they're acting like white n****rs. And he was using those people's views, their framework of the World, against them in an effort to shame them. To knock them off their pedestals and show them up.
me: that's a terrible justification

me: he blamed social justice for the Alta Vista murders,
you: Not specifically. He was saying you take people's options away and stamp down on them, don't be surprised when they lash out. This is about managing fringe elements of society. You shove a stick into a hornets nest, what do you think will happen? These SJW type movements are doing that, and it's dangerous and doesn't need to be done. Give these elements of society peaceful outlets for their frustration and don't antagonize them. It's far better than the alternative.
me: Your response is both an inaccurate reflection of what is going on in the world (nobody is having their options taken away and being stamped down on) and a biased reflection of what Carl said. He said "Before your stupid social justice feminine [sic] BS, [mass murders] didn't happen on this scale, it's CRAZY. This is a disease of the modern age. YOU are responsible for perpetuating it, by disenfranchising these poor f*****g guys who don't have any options left. When someone takes the option of absolute INSANELY last resort, you have to wonder, what kind of system is producing them? And I'll tell you what, Laci, it is a f*****g FEMINIST SYSTEM THAT IS DOING THIS."
He thinks feminism is disenfranchising people and creating mass murderers. It's absolutely bonkers. And when you put it in the particular context of this shooting - a man who murdered strange women because he had never had sex - it has some pretty dark undertones. What's his proposed anti-feminist solution to incels?

Me: he has said "I'm sorry about the Holocaust but I don't give a s**t"
You: Yes, he did. Super blunt, but probably the default position for most people. Bad thing happened. Acknowledge it was bad. Go on with life without thinking about it.
Me: Let's look at his remarks in context: "Jewish people, unfortunately for them, have got to drop the identity politics. I’m sorry about the Holocaust but I don’t give a s***. I’m sorry. Jewish people do very well in our societies. That’s to their credit, they work hard. It’s not that this is illegitimately gained. But then, I can see why people are resentful that successful, rich, well-off people, who are well connected, who are socially very advanced, are then playing the game of identity politics as well."
Several anti-Semitic tropes in there including the notion that Jewish people are inherently "doing well" (imagine his aneurysm if someone else said "white people are doing well"). Relegating the Holocaust to "identity politics" rather than a dark shadow that looms large over people's lives and our society as a whole... people don't bring up the Holocaust to "score points", they bring it up because they are legitimately scared, because their parents and grandparents have told them about it, and because it killed, what, half the Jews in the world? Certainly this side of the Atlantic. He makes out like Jews are football fans complaining about an undeserved defeat in 1973.

Me: he's sent rape threats to politicians
You: He sent the exact opposite of a rape threat.
Me: You're referring to him saying, in response to a politician complaining about rape threats, "I wouldn't even rape you". Again, it's rather biased to not look at the work that "even" is doing in that sentence; given the context, there is no reasonable doubt that the intention here was to cause intimidation.
Regardless, he has also sent actual rape threats. A few weeks ago he said about the remarks that "with enough pressure I might cave".

Me: he's a 9/11 truth[er]
You: Not sure what that means, but I'd be very surprised if his views on 9/11 were different from the accepted views.
Me: He's repeatedly said that while he thinks planes hit the towers, they weren't what caused the towers to fall. However, apparently in 2017 he watched a five-minute YouTube video which changed his mind. So this does not reflect poorly on the character of present-day Carl. It does, however, reflect poorly on his intellect.

Me: he believes cultural Marxism is taking over the world,
You: It is. Western World anyway, slowly.
Me: Nonsense. Cultural Marxism is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory literally created by the Nazis to slur the Frankfurt school. The Frankfurt school were basically oddballs. Except for Erich Fromm, who has a little bit of a following in academic circles, they're now almost entirely irrelevant.
So, best case scenario - define "cultural Marxism".

Me: he's defended Harvey Weinstein
You: I know of no such instance, but I definitely remember him trashing Weinstein.
Me: He's said that the people who accused him were "money-digging whores".

Me: he thinks women in politics are causing societal decline
You: You'll have to elaborate on that one. There's a lot of women in politics who the World would be better off if they weren't, but I'm sure he has no problem with women getting into politics.
Me: On TrainWreckTV's podcast, Carl said: "Men were the ones who were generally involved in politics. Now women are also involved in politics and - frankly - society is declining. You know, the actual sort of health of the society…"
Another guest said that was "really ridiculous" and Carl doubled down, saying it was "demonstrable".

Me:he's endorsed Marine le Pen, Donald Trump, and Jair Bolansaro,
You: I don't know if he did or didn't. Yes he does, but he has bad things to say about Trump too. Is that the guy who did the I wouldn't even rape you thing in Brazil? If so I remember Sargon bringing that up, but that's it, and just as a "you think what I did is bad? Well..."
Me: He endorsed all three. It is uncontroversial to call two of them fascists. On Bolansaro, he has repeatedly said that he is right to persecute gay people.

Me: and he thinks Black Lives Matter is a black supremacist movement that wants to kill police officers.
You: It is. And while they might not necessarily want to kill police, they do want police to cease to exist, and to fill that power vacuum.
Me: I'll assume you mean that BLM is black supremacist rather than contradicting yourself. Do you have any evidence for that?

In conclusion: next time a far-right blowhard starts complaining about "media smears", research whether the accusations are true before uncritically defending him. Chances are, the media were telling the truth and the far-righty is actually as bad as he's being made out to be. We've seen it with Trump and now with Benjamin.

The mass media smearing continues. I just came to post a comment on one of the smear articles because it's a great comment. It was on this one:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/c ... -1-4922621

@ Walrus

I think if I try to respond to all those at once, it's going to end up with enormous, exhausting posts really fast, with the added bonus of the captcha in our faces with every post. So I think it best to deal with the points one by one. I think we can disregard the 9/11 one since you have no issue with present day Carl on that.

We might as well start with Jess, since that's the in-topic right now.



This may well decide if I want to respond to the others, because I am sceptical about whether you are arguing in good faith since twice now you have categorised a non-rape threat as a rape threat, which is just what the media is doing. But let's see how this goes. I don't think the intent was to cause intimidation, or that it should have. It was to aggravate her, it was bait, and she took it. It is offensive, but nothing more.

That's not a rape threat. Even if we took the joke dead seriously, he still says there isn't enough beer in the World, meaning it still wouldn't ever happen. The joke wasn't even about Jess, it was at the expense of the media. It was directed at them, not Jess. That whole video was directed at them.

In what way are any of those people "Literal Nazis" none of them are Neo Nazis or even far right.

What does Tommy Robinson believe that makes him a Nazi? He supports multiculturalism and is funded by Jews, he's a keen Zionist which is why the actual far right calls him Tommy Robinstein.

Paul Joseph Watson is a conspiracy theorist what beliefs does he have that make him a Nazi?

Mark Meechan really? Really? This is the most ridiculous one. What makes him a Nazi? The fact he taught his dog to do a trick for a joke? Is John Cleese also a Nazi then?

No, I'm pretty sure it's the hammer and sickle he has tattooed on his chest.

I see, UKIP is trying really hard to improve their image...

Tommy Robinson has made many anti-Muslim statements. For example:
"I'd personally send every adult male Muslim that has come into the EU over the past 12 months back if I could."
"Every single Muslim watching this…on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens, you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end…and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again."
"Mo Farah, the first time I heard Mo Farah come out he said he's said he's made to feel like an alien. No Mo, it's because the people from your home country Somalia are backward barbarians!"
"It's not your country or your capital. You're part of an invasion into our country Sadiq."

Watson has not only actively provided a platform for Yaxley-Lennon, but has also propagated far-right conspiracy theories and has made the same sort of anti-Muslim statements, saying that Islam is "destroying Western culture", opposing immigration on the grounds of ethnicity, and supporting the neo-fascist Marine le Pen for France's presidency. He repeatedly minimises far-right terrorist attacks and has even blamed Muslims for terrorist attacks by non-Muslims (such as the attack on Dortmund's bus).

I thought the prosecution of Meechan was ridiculous at first. On the face of it he was just playing a prank on his girlfriend and got caught out when his video unintentionally went viral. As time has gone on he's just proven to be a genuine full-blown racist. Again, he shares opposition to "Muslim immigration" and has been happy to associate not just with Robinson and Southern, but also Carl Robertson. If you walked around Germany in 1930 saying "I like Hitler" then you were a Nazi. If you go around in 2019 saying that you like Robinson and Southern and Robertson then you're a neo-Nazi.

Tommy Robinson is a racist f**k at the very least.

And anyone who claims he is isn't, isn't very clued up on his checkered past.

Even though I don't think he was intending to make an actual threat with 'I wouldn't even rape you'...I don't see how that would really be appropriate to say.

Gross thing to say in any context, while sounds like the woman he was addressing is quite the a**hole, not sure satirical hypothetical comments about whether or not he'd rape her is appropriate even if he was just trying to get attention for himself.


She's an a**hole for laughing at the suggestion of talking about mens issues, and he's an a**hole for saying such a gross thing.

No, he isn't.
Erm.
Who is Tommy Robinson?

I didn't have a problem with that.
The problem I have with him is his follow-up comment that if he were pressed/pressured, he would.
He drops the punchline about there not being enough beer in the world to allow him to do it though.
I think he went too far.
But it is an effective humorous construct, speaking objectively. <shrug>

Personally speaking, the woman involved shouldn't take it personally.
She is only a medium/conduit for his humour and, in this context, is pretty much irrelevant to his "witty" banter.
Her argument is that she has been targeted by him and others for a long time and it has worn her down emotionally.

I am not defending him, so don't crucify me unless you feel it is absolutely necessary.

How is he racist though? He joined the BNP but left when they wouldn't let his black mate in.

He is racist due to his upbringing and peers , he has tried to make out that he is not racist and distance himself from his past , he has rebranded himself almost as a politician and only wants to talk about religion. He is very careful about what he says so you won't find much to prove this , occasionally he lets his mask slip




I found this comment which states thing far better than I ever could