In support of Israel.

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thinkinginpictures
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26 Nov 2019, 11:28 am

Persephone29 wrote:

I'm just a realist. It has nothing to do with belief. It happens. What do you propose? The UN go in and overthrow Israel, who they helped get the land in the first place after the Holocaust? It's survival of the fittest. Everyone is content to support evolution and Darwin, when they are fighting to disprove creation/religion. But let it play out in real time and they all lose their minds.

But you seem to approve of this is how things should rightly be. That not only is this the case today and has always been the case, you seem to say "it is GOOD that it is this way". You seem to argue in favor of social-darwinism, that you think it is good that strong people dominate and exploit the weak, and that is how it should remain.

I too realise that this is the way the world CURRENTLY works. But I certainly disapprove of it.

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26 Nov 2019, 11:30 am

envirozentinel wrote:

I don't think she believes that at all, and you're launching a personal attack on her with little evidence to go on that your accusations are accurate. Please post within the rules. Argue points, not the person.

These are not accusations. Persephone29 clearly stated that she supports Israel because they won the war. She then attacked my morality when I disapproved of that just because you win a war, doesn't grant you the right, because I do not believe the "right" equals "might".

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26 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Persephone29, you will look differently at things if your country was invaded and lost the war.

Then I doubt you will think it is good thing that you become a slave. Then you would start believing that maybe it would have been better if right doesn't neccessarily equal to might.

There is no should or shouldn't in nature, there just is. And apparently the world's governments tend to agree, because despite the pleas from the Palestinians, the UN is NOT listening. Why? Are they all bereft of compassion? Or, do they understand what I do, that lands extend, borders broaden because of war?

Israel is not a country to be trifled with. In addition to their wealth, they have advances in technology that the world needs and depends on. What does everyone need when attempting to survive? They need an advantage.

You're mighty high up on your horse, but even animals are smart enough to try and run when there's a forest fire. The Palestinians just sit there.

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Last edited by Persephone29 on 26 Nov 2019, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Nov 2019, 11:36 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I did not say it was right, I said that it IS.

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Persephone29
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26 Nov 2019, 11:40 am

What I did use "right" and Israel in the same sentence as is : Israel has the right to exist.

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thinkinginpictures
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26 Nov 2019, 11:41 am

Persephone29 wrote:

There is no should or shouldn't in nature, there just is.

And yet you're thread title states "In SUPPORT of Israel", indicating that there is some "should be" after all.

But the only one here allowed to say or indicate anything similar to "should be" is you, apparently?

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26 Nov 2019, 11:43 am

envirozentinel wrote:

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Persephone29 wrote:

I didn't answer it, but Fnord did. It's their right because they won. Palestinians should no longer be where they are, they were defeated. By all rights they shouldn't still be on the Gaza Strip, but they are because of Israel allowing them to do so. Kinda like the Indian Reservations, in the US. It's not pretty, but it's true. YOU have a problem with what is true, because you are so caught up in your pollyanna views of how the world should be, you can't see it for how it is. If this goes the way most battles go, the Israelis will keep moving forward and edging out the Palestinians to eventually claim the whole territory. This will happen because the Palestinians, unable and unwilling to accept defeat and relocate, will sit there and be bulldozed over.

By your standards, every country has the right to kick the original inhabitants out of every nation, if they can win a war.
You're definitely the bigot!

Say Russia attacked the U.S. and won. Then, by your own "moral", Russia has every "right" to

Lkick the Americans out of the U.S. or enslave them or do whatever they want.

You do realize that the US exists as it is today by displacement of the original inhabitants? Shouldn't the descendants of the original inhabitants be suitably reparated and remunerated for their lost land? And what was deliberately done to the bison in order to destroy their livelihood was unspeakable.

(Sorry to derail the topic...)

Yes, that is horrible.

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thinkinginpictures
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26 Nov 2019, 11:44 am

Your entire OP is all about support for israel. Everything IN FAVOR OF, another indication of "should be", yet you change the rules in the middle of the game, so to speak, and talk about "no should be in nature, nature just is".

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26 Nov 2019, 11:48 am

Thinkinginpictures,she's right about how advanced they are for a small nation. My own country had a horrible history of oppressing the majority of the people. It was not right, but the then government had to have a show of might, to show that they could defend themselves. Luckily the way of negotiation prevailed and there was a peaceful transition. So yeah, it just is a feature of a country to build a laager rightly or wrongly at such a time.

As I mentioned, if you carry it to its logical conclusion then the US has no right to exist either because they won wars against the original inhabitants! Neither do any colonials have the right to live in the countries they were born in without choosing to!

We have to make the best out of where we find ourselves now. Ideally there shouldn't be national borders but we are far from ready for such, while egotistical leaders rattle their Sabres.

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thinkinginpictures
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26 Nov 2019, 11:51 am

envirozentinel wrote:

Nobody including myself is disputing facts of life or reality here.

What I dispute is the morality behind support for Israel.

And when I say "this is how things currently work, but it SHOULDN'T be like this" (morally speaking), Persephone changes the rules in "the middle of the game", so to speak (my use of the word "game" is used metaphorically), and say that "in nature there is no should or shouldn't there just is".

But at the same time, the original topic is ALL ABOUT "should/shouln't" a whole topic dedicated to the MORAL support for Israel.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 26 Nov 2019, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Nov 2019, 11:52 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Persephone29 wrote:

There is no should or shouldn't in nature, there just is.

Do you agree that there are some 'rights' bestowed on the victor in every situation? This is not the Miss. America pageant. They don't bestow the crown and then the winner poses nude and gets the crown taken away. Blood was shed and the victor takes the spoils. Israel isn't rounding up Palestinians and putting them in war camps, they would prefer to be left in peace. But, since the Palestinians can't accept their defeat, they keep getting shot at. What do you propose? Israel ceases fire and the Palestinians dig tunnels, push down the wall, roll burning tires, throw rocks and invade, but Israel does nothing back? I sure hope you're kidding and I sure hope you're not my fellow countryman because that US Russian invasion is looking a little more real, right about now.

It happens because that's what happens and nobody is stopping it.

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26 Nov 2019, 11:54 am

Persephone29 wrote:

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Persephone29 wrote:

There is no should or shouldn't in nature, there just is.

What I propose? Two-state solution, with UN soldiers guarding the borders.

And, as I already said earlier, IF Israel is attacked by the Palestinians AFTER the Palestinians got their own country/nation, THEN Israel have the (moral) right to destroy and annex Palestine.

And vice versa.

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26 Nov 2019, 11:57 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I don't expect the shoulds and shouldn'ts to stop. What I do expect is for people who hate Israel to realize they are just as bigoted as they claim everyone else is. If a person thinks that this world isn't big enough for any minority, whenever and where ever they've had guts enough to fight and spill blood, they are a bigot. If they can fight and take it, they ARE. And they should always BE. Our approval is not needed.

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26 Nov 2019, 12:05 pm

envirozentinel wrote:

I also think tides turn, for instance South Africa. It's not comfortable, but I can't say I blame them. And, I don't think the US should intervene. I don't know if they have, but I don't think they should. Do I think it will backfire? Yes, the white run farms are an important part of their food sources. But, if the opposing side has the might and the will to fight, I don't think we should stand in the way.

The tides may turn for the US, I hope they don't. In that respect I have fear. But, would we deserve it if it happens? I think I might have to say yes, as much as it pains me.

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26 Nov 2019, 12:49 pm

I'm a middle of the road South African who believes we can make it work like Nelson Mandela wanted it to - a true rainbow nation but we have had to put up with some elements of extremism. One small party the BLF was recently deregulated because they refused to accept or allow any white members - blatant racism which is against our Constitution.

I always voted for the main opposition but may switch support a to a tiny new green/ libertarian party called the Organic Humanity Movement.

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26 Nov 2019, 12:54 pm

The "white run farms" are probably more of a problem in Zimbabwe than in South Africa, if I'm not mistaken.

Robert Mugabe had taken over from a white-minority government about 1980 in Zimbabwe, and he went the other way, being racist against white people. He didn't feel the Mandela way was the best way.

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