[ POLL ] An Argument Against Universal Basic Income.

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Do you agree with the premises and conclusion of the essay?
Yes, absolutely! 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Yes, mostly. 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Some things yes, some things no. 27%  27%  [ 12 ]
No, mostly. 33%  33%  [ 15 ]
No, absolutely! 22%  22%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 45

auntblabby
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29 Apr 2020, 11:47 am

Fnord wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Fnord wrote:
That all seems to make sense; but again, where would the money to pay for it all come from?
as will rogers suggested, an exchange tax on all wall st. transactions would pay for a lot.
It would also encourage corporations to remove their listings from AMEX and DJX, and re-list on only off-shore exchanges.  No, there has to be a source that is both stable and secure; one that could not be removed as a source.

ok, how 'bout if the taxes were all on the end user investor, at tax filing time each trade would be counted a certain amount of additional tax owed. for frequent traders, a buck a trade extra would add up over time. or absent all that, a VAT?



nca14
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29 Apr 2020, 11:50 am

I think that UBI may be supported by people like me quite often. I think that people with disorders like NVLD with social ineptitude should have some money even when they not work at all because they are really often handicapped in the terms of earning money and social relations. I think that they are disabled in some way, sometimes not so mildly! They should get help from society. Part of them may be unable to function at job market at all and they may appear to be "not created" for the occupational job. I think that it is "scandalous" when such a people have "junk contracts" or have lack of financial security.

I do not consume ethanol, nicotin, illicit drugs (although I practically have to get psychotropic drugs prescribed by psychiatrist) but I have no job also. In Poland I have social pension (worth about 250$) and care allowance (only about 50$). It is much money for me, I live in the village with my parents and sibling(s). I have own room in my home. My life standard is very high, although lack of wife can be mentally unpleasant and demotivating. I am 28,5 years old now. I had a work for about 6 months (in two periods, shorter and longer). It was thanks to my disability certificate. Employer might have pretty large help because of emloying me while I had that certificate. It was normal-contract job. Only(?) such contract allowed employer to have benefits from employing me. The job was very easy, but quite uncomfortable and rarely I had problems because of doing it (I had to leave the place in which I worked or someone threated that he/she will call the police). I had "good luck" (monotheists, at least some of them, do not believe in something like luck, and/so I also do not believe, but that word here appears to communicate the situation in which I was) because I received ruling of total incapacity of work in Social Insurance Institution three times and last ruling allows me to have social pension to 30.11.2024. I am "peculiar" and "dysfunctional in life". Maybe severe(?) OCD isd the largest limitation in my life. I have fear of eternal damnation (which has not to be a symptom of mental disorder), being tortured, suffer greatly, being infected (not only by SARS-CoV-2).



Fnord
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29 Apr 2020, 11:51 am

auntblabby wrote:
Fnord wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Fnord wrote:
That all seems to make sense; but again, where would the money to pay for it all come from?
as will rogers suggested, an exchange tax on all wall st. transactions would pay for a lot.
It would also encourage corporations to remove their listings from AMEX and DJX, and re-list on only off-shore exchanges.  No, there has to be a source that is both stable and secure; one that could not be removed as a source.
ok, how 'bout if the taxes were all on the end user investor, at tax filing time each trade would be counted a certain amount of additional tax owed. for frequent traders, a buck a trade extra would add up over time. or absent all that, a VAT?
Do you mean a sales tax?  We have that already.  Increasing it would increase the cost of goods, which would require an increase in the UBI, which would require an increase in the sales tax, which would increase the cost of goods, which would require an increase in the UBI, which would require an increase in the sales tax... et cetera ... ad infinitum ...



Fnord
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29 Apr 2020, 11:52 am

nca14 wrote:
I think that UBI may be supported by people like me quite often. I think that people with disorders like NVLD with social ineptitude should have some money even when they not work at all because they are really often handicapped in the terms of earning money and social relations. I think that they are disabled in some way, sometimes not so mildly! They should get help from society. Part of them may be unable to function at job market at all and they may appear to be "not created" for the occupational job. I think that it is "scandalous" when such a people have "junk contracts" or have lack of financial security.

I do not consume ethanol, nicotin, illicit drugs (although I practically have to get psychotropic drugs prescribed by psychiatrist) but I have no job also. In Poland I have social pension (worth about 250$) and care allowance (only about 50$). It is much money for me, I live in the village with my parents and sibling(s). I have own room in my home. My life standard is very high, although lack of wife can be mentally unpleasant and demotivating. I am 28,5 years old now. I had a work for about 6 months (in two periods, shorter and longer). It was thanks to my disability certificate. Employer might have pretty large help because of emloying me while I had that certificate. It was normal-contract job. Only(?) such contract allowed employer to have benefits from employing me. The job was very easy, but quite uncomfortable and rarely I had problems because of doing it (I had to leave the place in which I worked or someone threated that he/she will call the police). I had "good luck" (monotheists, at least some of them, do not believe in something like luck, and/so I also do not believe, but that word here appears to communicate the situation in which I was) because I received ruling of total incapacity of work in Social Insurance Institution three times and last ruling allows me to have social pension to 30.11.2024. I am "peculiar" and "dysfunctional in life". Maybe severe(?) OCD isd the largest limitation in my life. I have fear of eternal damnation (which has not to be a symptom of mental disorder), being tortured, suffer greatly, being infected (not only by SARS-CoV-2).
Virtue signals noted.



cubedemon6073
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29 Apr 2020, 11:54 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s true. There are times when people are held back from being creative because of employment obligations, and that some of the products of creativity produced by one with no employment obligations could prove productive.

But the folks who want to be slackers ruin it for the ones who seek to be productive through their creativity.



I do understand. I do wonder how many would slack vs those who would not. If the amount who would slack would be low then I would say let them. It is true that it would not be fair but is life truthfully fair. Those who would complain about the slackers are the same ones who always say "life is not fair." If it is high then it would be an issue and NBI would not be a good idea then unless certain safeguards were put in place.

But, all I'm doing is throwing out alternative ideas to our current system. Just crazy ideas for others to mull on.



auntblabby
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29 Apr 2020, 11:54 am

Fnord wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i don't get why rich people should get anything, i mean why should it not be phased out above a certain amount of means-tested wealth? btw, i'm told a form of UBI could be implemented right now via tax code tweaks, by modifying the platform of the earned income tax credit.
That makes sense at first, but it does not take into account the inherent laziness and greed of the human spirit.

it IMHO should be present as a form of social insurance in that even the wealthy, while not being able to claim the UBI benefit, still would immediately be able to claim it should everything go to hell for them financially. like if they lost it all. if it were in the form of a vastly boosted EITC, it would at least reduce poverty among the working class and cause a modest amount of "percolate upwards" economic boost esp. if it was encouraged for them to spend it on local merchants.



cubedemon6073
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29 Apr 2020, 11:57 am

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m actually including STEM folks in this.  Thomas Alva Edison couldn’t hold down a job if his life depended on it.
False Claim.  Inventing was Thomas Alva Edison's job, and he kept at it up until shortly before his death.

You really should read more.


Maybe Kraftie was talking about other jobs besides inventing. I don't know.

Either way, there's no need for the snarky comments.



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29 Apr 2020, 11:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I should read more???? You totally missed my point. Everybody should “read more.” I’m saying that STEM types of folks can be creative, too.

Thomas Edison couldn’t make time to work for someone else because of the time he took in inventing. Obviously, he was able to make it financially viable over time....but he had plenty of lean years.

It is much more difficult within the context of today to immerse one’s self in a single-minded quest.

It is almost impossible, these days, to make a living solely as an “inventor” without making time for, and being accountable to, someone else as an employer.


Kraftie, maybe there is a full moon out where Fnord lives. Sometimes the full moon affects people's moods and makes them cranky. ;)

Do you understand my thoughts and ideas though?



kraftiekortie
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29 Apr 2020, 12:37 pm

I do understand that being employed by someone else could inhibit some from making discoveries which would be possible if they didn’t have such a obligation.

In an ideal world, one could submit plans for such an endeavor for approval—and, if approved, be given some sort of “stipend” similar to those which are given to graduate students.

However, this is not an ideal world, and this sort of system is vulnerable to all sorts of abuses.

It would take some thought to come up with a way to prevent these sorts of abuses.



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29 Apr 2020, 12:52 pm

Is UBI given regardless of whether you work or it like communism where everyone who works gets the same or almost the same pay.

Who would work if you get paid the same money whether or whether not you work,and then who would perform services needed if working wasn't required to survive?

If it's like communism,didn't communism already fail because without an incentive to work harder,who would make a better product,and then you have an economy that can't keep up with the world.

Either way it's defined it doesn't sound good.


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magz
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29 Apr 2020, 12:57 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I do understand that being employed by someone else could inhibit some from making discoveries which would be possible if they didn’t have such a obligation.

In an ideal world, one could submit plans for such an endeavor for approval—and, if approved, be given some sort of “stipend” similar to those which are given to graduate students.

However, this is not an ideal world, and this sort of system is vulnerable to all sorts of abuses.

It would take some thought to come up with a way to prevent these sorts of abuses.

In science, such system is called grants.
Grant hunting is a skill on its own. Obtaining one is quite a lot of work unrelated to the actual research.


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29 Apr 2020, 12:59 pm

Communism fails.

Socialism stagnates.

Capitalism works.



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29 Apr 2020, 1:04 pm

My general thought on socialism - based mainly on modern history of different countries - is:
It's very inefficient in fighting poverty.
It's quite a good option to spend excess wealth for common good.

Socialism is something societes may afford.
I see UBI as no exception from this rule, though I think universal healthcare and quality public education should go first.


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nca14
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29 Apr 2020, 4:11 pm

My mentality also thinks that universal healthcare for free is something which has to be in every truly civilized country.

Capitalism and liberalism looks worse than some sorts of socialism for my nature. Capitalism can easily be ruthless for poorer and having problems with job, with having much money. Communism is bad, evil.

My nature would have no shame if I would life in comfort and without more significant evils and problems despite not working at all. It thinks that my job may be, for example, noticing and writing coincidences or think about theology and entire creation. "My job could be the thinker". I have no moral problems with taking social pension and care allowance. Their help my family. I can live in more humane conditions due to them.



quite an extreme
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29 Apr 2020, 4:57 pm

Fnord wrote:
Do you mean a sales tax?  We have that already.  Increasing it would increase the cost of goods, which would require an increase in the UBI, which would require an increase in the sales tax, which would increase the cost of goods, which would require an increase in the UBI, which would require an increase in the sales tax... et cetera ... ad infinitum ...

The average sales tax in USA is not even half as high as in Germany. Beside of that you may ask Google for Achilles and the turtle and the solution. Seems it's the kind of a paradox you have some problems with. :mrgreen:


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30 Apr 2020, 1:15 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
... Just because people would be allowed to leave the jobs they don't like and still get UBI, most people wouldn't because they wouldn't be able to afford any hobbies or other things that took money.  Some would, but even out of them, most would get tired of such a lifestyle eventually and return to the workforce, even if they can't get a job they like.  So yes, I suppose it would work, as long as it's made sure that the money is used on necessary stuff and the people won't do things like eat out, go to movies or buy brand clothes...
So it seems that a "Bare Essentials" UBI policy would not go over well.  It seems that some people would rather not earn those "extras" you mentioned, and would quit a well-paying job they don't like if they could get those luxury items for free.

Pretty soon there would be neighborhoods full of "Welfare Royalty" who have no idea of the true value of what they have, and who have no idea of how literally rewarding a full day's labor can be.


Let me ask you and Fireblossom this. Would either of you want people who don't want to be in employment to work for either of you? I'm talking about the clock watchers and those who can't wait to leave and go home.

Now, with the current system in place these types who will be forced to be employed or not eat will simply be forced to put on an act. As in, pretend to be enthusiastic about working there. All those types will do is know the right tone, say the right things and give the expected personality to the employer. Employer hires them and they sold themselves by faking, lying and pretending. And, all they will do is what is minimally required of them and they will do anything and everything to get out of work and getting the paid the most. Is this what you guys want?

You have UBI with some extra spending money not only would you help contribute to the economy but by deincentiving these types from going into employment and pursuing what they wish to pursue wouldn't the productivity of your companies go up because the only people you have there would be those who actually want to be there.

You guys may see what I'm suggesting as bad and negative and what I'm suggesting is counter-intutitive to everything you accept to be true but why don't we try something radically different? Let's see what happens. Maybe try it in a city or state and let's just see what the heck happens.

Fnord, when you said and I'm paraphrasing "if you can't handle employment then stay home." Why can't some do just that? This is an awesome idea you came up with which I took further. Maybe, just maybe we could have some indirect benefits from what I am suggesting. Why don't we pay people to stay home and in fact maybe to get that "more" past the basic UBI maybe they would have to show they're doing something productive like maybe inventing a new OS, new form of rocket engine, even creating differing apps, or even growing a garden and giving food to the homeless? Maybe this could solve the whole being a parasite problem.

And, by the way there is no such thing as 0% unemployment anyway.


If a person like that did the things that are written in their job contract and what they're getting paid for then I'd have no problem hiring them. From the perspective of a business owner, it's better to have someone who hates the job but does it well than someone who loves the job but does it poorly.

I don't like my job, but I don't fake. I'm glad to have a job.