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what do you think about militaries using killer robots?

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Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:29 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I never did get the point of the .300 blackout because I would just get a Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62x39mm or a AK-47 because the 7.62x39mm is about powerful as a .30-30 or a .300 Blackout roughly and alot easier to find ammo for and is cheaper and a AK would prolly be more dependable than a AR platform.


Blackout has a few advantages, notably being built from the ground up to function in short barrels, to reliably cycle both lighweight supersonic rounds and heavy subsonics, and to do it all both suppressed and unsuppressed, so changing the performance of the rifle is as quick as a magazine change. I mostly shoot subs through mine cause it's much more fun with the can that way, but I'd step up to supers for any serious use, the cool part is that even without the can I can get away with an 8" barrel and not lose velocity or have a flamethrower on my hands, as the round is designed to reach maximum speed much faster than a conventional rifle round. You could cut down a Mini or an AK, but you'd be dealing with a lot more blast and lost performance, and those platforms are both inferior to the AR, especially in the accuracy department with the extra moving mass from the piston and all, and both suck to suppress due to the piston pop. Modern ARs don't even give up any reliability to the AK, that's largely a Vietnam era myth from when they were still working the bugs out of the military M16s, and even that was more an issue of the choice of powder than faulty design.


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funeralxempire
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21 Dec 2021, 6:31 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What do you think about children using assault weapons?

I think they are likely to go on killing sprees due to faulty information they find on-line.

Define assault weapons.Do you mean assault rifles or modern sporting rifles?


If he said "assault rifles" then he probably means "assault rifles".

Military type automatic capable rifles that fire heavy bullets like the M16, and the AK 47, but also the consumer civilian version of the M16 (the AR 15). And not hunting rifles that fire one shot at a time.


Assault rifles are defined by firing relatively light bullets compared to a battle rifle.

A modern sporting rifle is the weapon of choice for many mass shooters and is what the media refers to as an assault weapon. A modern sporting rifle isn't granddad's bolt action 30-06, it's a sporterized assault rifle derivative.

Ya True but I dont think the general public knows how scary a bolt action .270 Winchester deer rifle could be.


Indeed.

Beyond that it's a topic where often people get distracted by arguing over jargon or using trivial distinctions to avoid certain realizations.

Whether or not one believes this is a valid reason to restrict access, it's fair to say that the average sporterized AR-15 or AR-10 or SKS or AK would make a better infantry weapon than anything given out as standard issue in WWII.

Personally if I had to restrict access to any class of guns it would semi-automatic handguns because those are the most common type used in homicides in the US.


I'm have pretty mixed feelings towards restrictions. The US is great for showing the rest of the world why things can't be too lax but Canada is stricter than I feel it needs to be and Canada isn't that strict compared to the UK or Australia.


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funeralxempire
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21 Dec 2021, 6:33 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Modern ARs don't even give up any reliability to the AK, that's largely a Vietnam era myth from when they were still working the bugs out of the military M16s, and even that was more an issue of the choice of powder than faulty design.


Hey guys, with this powder the rifle won't need a cleaning kit.
But, that powder is expensive, we'll substitute something else.
And add a cleaning kit?
There, powder's been changed, everything is done.
What about the cleaning kit?

40 years later:
Ah man, those things are unreliable due to fouling. :mrgreen:


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Interesting point. You could have a remote control "robocop" enter some Iraqi person's home. And if a human child points a toy gun on the robot the robot can just stare at the kid while the kid pulls the trigger. If the "toy" turns out to be a real gun firing a real bullet- its only gonna hit a bot- so there is no life lost. And the bot would probably be bullet proof anyway. And if the gun turns out to be a toy the bot wouldnt have been tempted to shoot the innocent kid to save its own life the way a human soldier would.


Exactly, without the immediacy of being personally shot at, it would be much easier to weigh every decision carefully, no more "in the heat of the moment" mistakes. I'm not sure how I feel about the same idea for domestic law enforcement, even though some of the same principles would apply.


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Texasmoneyman300
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21 Dec 2021, 6:40 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What do you think about children using assault weapons?

I think they are likely to go on killing sprees due to faulty information they find on-line.

Define assault weapons.Do you mean assault rifles or modern sporting rifles?


If he said "assault rifles" then he probably means "assault rifles".

Military type automatic capable rifles that fire heavy bullets like the M16, and the AK 47, but also the consumer civilian version of the M16 (the AR 15). And not hunting rifles that fire one shot at a time.


Assault rifles are defined by firing relatively light bullets compared to a battle rifle.

A modern sporting rifle is the weapon of choice for many mass shooters and is what the media refers to as an assault weapon. A modern sporting rifle isn't granddad's bolt action 30-06, it's a sporterized assault rifle derivative.

Ya True but I dont think the general public knows how scary a bolt action .270 Winchester deer rifle could be.


Indeed.

Beyond that it's a topic where often people get distracted by arguing over jargon or using trivial distinctions to avoid certain realizations.

Whether or not one believes this is a valid reason to restrict access, it's fair to say that the average sporterized AR-15 or AR-10 or SKS or AK would make a better infantry weapon than anything given out as standard issue in WWII.

Personally if I had to restrict access to any class of guns it would semi-automatic handguns because those are the most common type used in homicides in the US.


I'm have pretty mixed feelings towards restrictions. The US is great for showing the rest of the world why things can't be too lax but Canada is stricter than I feel it needs to be and Canada isn't that strict compared to the UK or Australia.

Oh okay I heard Canada was gonna ban airsoft guns its so strict compared to the US.But even some states are way more strict than you would expect because airsoft guns are banned totally in Arkansas.Personally my philiosophy is that no criminal cares what the law is.Although I think teenagers may need to be required to take gun safety classes before they can hunt like the law in Texas.Like I had to take a class before I was legally allowed to hunt by myself in Texas.I think that gun and hunters ed would be a good law to have since not many fathers teach their kids how to handle a gun while you are hunting anymore.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 21 Dec 2021, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Hey guys, with this powder the rifle won't need a cleaning kit.
But, that powder is expensive, we'll substitute something else.
And add a cleaning kit?
There, powder's been changed, everything is done.
What about the cleaning kit?

40 years later:
Ah man, those things are unreliable due to fouling. :mrgreen:


^
This guy gets it. :D

There used to be this serial troll around here that had an AK fetish, the guy would trot that out every time, even when it meant burning another account he'd been trying to fly under the radar with, it was the damnedest thing. It's what us younger gun people call "Fudd lore", BS stories that have been passed around at gun store counters and gun shows for so long that gun boomers believe them, like that if you own certain guns the ATF can inspect your house at any time, or that flesh wounds from 5.56 rounds could kill due to the hydrostatic shock.


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Texasmoneyman300
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21 Dec 2021, 6:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Hey guys, with this powder the rifle won't need a cleaning kit.
But, that powder is expensive, we'll substitute something else.
And add a cleaning kit?
There, powder's been changed, everything is done.
What about the cleaning kit?

40 years later:
Ah man, those things are unreliable due to fouling. :mrgreen:


^
This guy gets it. :D

There used to be this serial troll around here that had an AK fetish, the guy would trot that out every time, even when it meant burning another account he'd been trying to fly under the radar with, it was the damnedest thing. It's what us younger gun people call "Fudd lore", BS stories that have been passed around at gun store counters and gun shows for so long that gun boomers believe them, like that if you own certain guns the ATF can inspect your house at any time, or that flesh wounds from 5.56 rounds could kill due to the hydrostatic shock.

I have heard that ATF-registered guns aint used in crime very often or at least thats what my friend with a silencer told me.



Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:47 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I'm have pretty mixed feelings towards restrictions. The US is great for showing the rest of the world why things can't be too lax but Canada is stricter than I feel it needs to be and Canada isn't that strict compared to the UK or Australia.


Eh, I'm not convinced that loosening your laws would really impact your crime rates, I think so much of violent crime is cultural, and for whatever reason, Canadian culture seems to have a lot less of what makes Americans violent. Your country does also provide an excellent example of why I oppose registration schemes, you had that very expensive long gun registry for years that IIRC never solved a single crime, but was used whenever the RCMP decided that they were going to retroactively ban something and needed to go confiscate them.


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Texasmoneyman300
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21 Dec 2021, 6:49 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I never did get the point of the .300 blackout because I would just get a Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62x39mm or a AK-47 because the 7.62x39mm is about powerful as a .30-30 or a .300 Blackout roughly and alot easier to find ammo for and is cheaper and a AK would prolly be more dependable than a AR platform.


Blackout has a few advantages, notably being built from the ground up to function in short barrels, to reliably cycle both lighweight supersonic rounds and heavy subsonics, and to do it all both suppressed and unsuppressed, so changing the performance of the rifle is as quick as a magazine change. I mostly shoot subs through mine cause it's much more fun with the can that way, but I'd step up to supers for any serious use, the cool part is that even without the can I can get away with an 8" barrel and not lose velocity or have a flamethrower on my hands, as the round is designed to reach maximum speed much faster than a conventional rifle round. You could cut down a Mini or an AK, but you'd be dealing with a lot more blast and lost performance, and those platforms are both inferior to the AR, especially in the accuracy department with the extra moving mass from the piston and all, and both suck to suppress due to the piston pop. Modern ARs don't even give up any reliability to the AK, that's largely a Vietnam era myth from when they were still working the bugs out of the military M16s, and even that was more an issue of the choice of powder than faulty design.

Oh thats very kool.You seem like a very knowledgle person about these sort of things.I heard that some AR-15s are fickle about what brand or type of ammo they will shoot but I honestly dont know true that is so I cant say either way.



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21 Dec 2021, 6:52 pm

Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm have pretty mixed feelings towards restrictions. The US is great for showing the rest of the world why things can't be too lax but Canada is stricter than I feel it needs to be and Canada isn't that strict compared to the UK or Australia.


Eh, I'm not convinced that loosening your laws would really impact your crime rates, I think so much of violent crime is cultural, and for whatever reason, Canadian culture seems to have a lot less of what makes Americans violent. Your country does also provide an excellent example of why I oppose registration schemes, you had that very expensive long gun registry for years that IIRC never solved a single crime, but was used whenever the RCMP decided that they were going to retroactively ban something and needed to go confiscate them.

Ya I agree.i think even if guns were banned or a lot more restricted like Canada or England or Australia there would still be David Koresh Types in the US.I am so sorry for making this thread go haywire.I think maybe we should get back to killer robots.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 21 Dec 2021, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:53 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I have heard that ATF-registered guns aint used in crime very often or at least thats what my friend with a silencer told me.


They aren't, too much money involved, and you're tied to the gun forever, not exactly low profile. If you wanted a full auto gun or a silencer to commit a crime with, converting a semi auto or rolling your own silencer is much easier than jumping through the federal hoops to get a legal one, and doesn't take the better part of a year and generate a massive paper trail leading straight to your door, to say nothing of the fact that even an el cheapo Mac 10 will set you back 8-10 $K these days, if you live in a state that allows them. Professionally made silencers are super over built with all sorts of exotic alloys to withstand prolonged firing schedules and are priced accordingly, if you just need a few quiet shots to whack someone over a drug debt or something, a pop bottle full of roofing insulation taped to the barrel of a .22 works just fine.


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Dox47
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21 Dec 2021, 6:54 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Oh thats very kool.You seem like a very knowledgle person about these sort of things.


I've got a gunsmithing degree, though my day job has mostly been as a chef. Long story.


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funeralxempire
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21 Dec 2021, 6:57 pm

Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm have pretty mixed feelings towards restrictions. The US is great for showing the rest of the world why things can't be too lax but Canada is stricter than I feel it needs to be and Canada isn't that strict compared to the UK or Australia.


Eh, I'm not convinced that loosening your laws would really impact your crime rates, I think so much of violent crime is cultural, and for whatever reason, Canadian culture seems to have a lot less of what makes Americans violent. Your country does also provide an excellent example of why I oppose registration schemes, you had that very expensive long gun registry for years that IIRC never solved a single crime, but was used whenever the RCMP decided that they were going to retroactively ban something and needed to go confiscate them.


Personally, I don't believe loosening gun laws would significantly reduce or increase crime here.

That said, I don't believe there's a lot of demand for any changes in any direction, whereas down there it's obviously an issue that most people with opinions on have very strong opinions about.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Texasmoneyman300
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21 Dec 2021, 6:57 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I have heard that ATF-registered guns aint used in crime very often or at least thats what my friend with a silencer told me.


They aren't, too much money involved, and you're tied to the gun forever, not exactly low profile. If you wanted a full auto gun or a silencer to commit a crime with, converting a semi auto or rolling your own silencer is much easier than jumping through the federal hoops to get a legal one, and doesn't take the better part of a year and generate a massive paper trail leading straight to your door, to say nothing of the fact that even an el cheapo Mac 10 will set you back 8-10 $K these days, if you live in a state that allows them. Professionally made silencers are super over built with all sorts of exotic alloys to withstand prolonged firing schedules and are priced accordingly, if you just need a few quiet shots to whack someone over a drug debt or something, a pop bottle full of roofing insulation taped to the barrel of a .22 works just fine.

Ya converting AR-15s to full auto is exactly what Koresh did.Interesting story.....my uncle knew Koresh and my dad ran into them in the distance and the locals warned my dad about them before it all went down.



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21 Dec 2021, 7:13 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Oh thats very kool.You seem like a very knowledgle person about these sort of things.


I've got a gunsmithing degree, though my day job has mostly been as a chef. Long story.

Oh okay thats neat I have a long story too because i was planning on being in the military as a officer all my life and it didnt work out because I almost died from a illness so I am just medically disabled on benefits trying to find a part-time job.Very long story too.I almost enlisted after high school but my grandfather told me to wait till I graduated from college so I could be a officer.I almost went or Afghanistan when I was 18 or 19.I was was surprised I made it to my 19th birthday based on my plans as a senior in high school of joining the Marines.my grandfather saved my life possibly.



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22 Dec 2021, 2:52 pm

Eugene Stoner made the AR-10 specifically to be a military weapon. The .222 project which developed the .223Rem and 5.56 NATO round was a military project. The military explicitly invited Stoner to re-design the AR-10 for the smaller cartridge. Stoner then designed the scaled-down AR-15, again, for the military. It is a military weapon, through and through. Stories about "hunting rifles" are hogwash.

For 25 years, gun owners used to brag and parade about how they owned an "assault rifle". Not ignorant gun haters - but by the actual gun owner themselves. But now that it's got a scary stigma, they're trying to re-write history and act like nobody (esp not THEM) ever called it an assault rifle, or that the fact that it being a military weapon was WHY they wanted one. It hasn't been until the last few years or so that I've heard such denials about the military history of the AR. Technically almost ANY gun can be "used for hunting", depending on what you're "hunting". Cos it's a GUN.

I think militaries using robots won't solve the problems that people think it will, and will create problems people aren't even considering.