Would you rather be right or keep a friend ?

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DW_a_mom
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04 Mar 2022, 5:04 pm

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

Anyway I feel silly and wish I'd just ignored it and had thicker skin. :roll:

We are all works in progress, and each experience informs and changes us for the future. I am not going to tell you what was right or wrong in that situation, or who was right or wrong. I think there is enough variety of perspective in this thread that I hoped it helped you with whatever perspective you felt you needed to find. While I don't want you to feel silly about your own natural reactions, I also know that it is just as natural as we mature to look back at past reactions and realize they could have and should have been better. As long as the conclusion is coming from inside of you, and isn't being pushed onto you by someone else, own it.

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Pepe
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04 Mar 2022, 5:14 pm

aghogday wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Fnord wrote:

There are no “degrees” of truth — There is only the truth and those who deny, disbelieve, distort, ignore, misrepresent, omit, or slander the truth. Such a person would never be my friend in the first place, because people who cannot properly handle the truth never seem to want to be my friend either. If they claim otherwise, their lies will eventually be revealed and their friendship with me will end immediately.

Sucks to be them.

A bit theatrical, but OK. :mrgreen:

Clue: What's Black And White;

Wrong And Right;

Good And Bad;

Skunks
Are Lovely
Creatures that
Walk the Night;

Black And White
Thinking is Fear,
Essence of Division,
Separation, Malcontent,
Agression, Violence, Hatred

And Wars That End Lives Callous
Without Regard For Differences A
Helping Hand up of Cognitive Empathy Truly Helps

To Actually Come to Understand More of the Perceived
Enemy And Even Love Folks Who Only See BLacK And White

Never Mind me
Dear Skunk
Continue

on The
Way You
Are Colored With SMiLEs..

kraftiekortie
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04 Mar 2022, 5:22 pm

Social media can be a trip sometimes!

Pepe
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04 Mar 2022, 5:24 pm

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

Anyway I feel silly and wish I'd just ignored it and had thicker skin. :roll:

You do the best you can with what you have at the time.
Obsessing over it, if you are, stops you from moving on.

I never make a mistake, so I can skip that part.

The Grand Inquisitor
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04 Mar 2022, 5:31 pm

Depends what it's regarding. Generally I'd say keeping the friend is better, unless there is a serious conflict of important values, principles or expectations that sees you and your friend unable to put aside or reconcile your differences in a mutually appeasing manner.

funeralxempire
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04 Mar 2022, 5:37 pm

^

Solid answer.

It definitely would depend on the nature of the conflict. For example I wouldn't remain friends with someone who espouses racial chauvinist views constantly, but I wouldn't refuse to be friends with someone because they just had different ideological leanings.

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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
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munstead
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05 Mar 2022, 1:19 am

Is the topic you are discussing with your friend "cannibalism is best when the meal is someone you know well"?

Pepe
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05 Mar 2022, 1:23 am

munstead wrote:

Is the topic you are discussing with your friend "cannibalism is best when the meal is someone you know well"?

Perhaps.
I can't recall. :scratch:

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05 Mar 2022, 1:24 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Very PC of you.

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06 Apr 2022, 12:39 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Fnord wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Truth is both absolute and constant; friends are not.

Truth might be absolute and constant, but human perception of the truth is not. . .

Proven truth is often denied and replaced with popular or traditional beliefs. It has often been stated that many people will prefer a pleasant belief to an unpleasant truth.

Maybe some people fear supernatural consequences for casting off their religious beliefs in favor of scientific truth.

Maybe the beliefs themselves originated with a charismatic narcissist who exploited his followers’ ignorance, prejudices, and hidden fears to acquire and maintain power for himself. Long after the narcissist has died, the beliefs will persist, perhaps in a group that used to enjoy exclusive privileges by denying the truth to other groups, but now finds itself being forced to share those privileges and truths with those other groups (whom the original group used to oppress) as “rights”.

Maybe some people simply do not want to be told what the truth is, but would rather decide for themselves what “truths” they will believe.

And maybe their beliefs arose from some combination of the above.

Truth is absolute and constant. Spurious belief is mutable and irrelevant.

I would rather have but one truthful friend than any number of delusional “friends” who believe in the lies of a charismatic narcissist.

OK, let’s put it another way - two people have a disagreement. These people possess similar characteristics, education, values, intelligence, knowledge, and backgrounds, and they have evaluated the same evidence, but have come to different conclusions. How confident should each of them be that their conclusion is the true one?

It’s possible that jimmyjazz is a rational, insightful individual who is defending robustly evidence-based against an irrational anti-intellectual who has based their views on dogma and superstition and prejudice. But it is also possible that this person has some information that Jimmy does not that would potentially cause him to come to a different conclusion. All of us sometimes get things wrong. That’s why it is important to tolerate a certain level of disagreement. We cannot be corrected and get smarter, better informed, and less wrong, unless we are prepared to learn.

Completely agree.
It is arrogant to assume that what you have in your hands is the absolute truth.This means that the possibility of corrections based on new information is discarded.This is actually the opposite of "science" and closer to "belief".
Scientific ideas advance as they are supplemented by new evidence. Hence the need to give others the opportunity to present their "evidence".

I would reject friends for "refusing to use new evidence to revise my opinion", not because their original opinion was different from mine.

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You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.

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shortfatbalduglyman
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06 Apr 2022, 7:10 am

"pick your battles" sounds correct but it is not always justified because some people pick all the battles

Fnord
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06 Apr 2022, 8:15 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

It is arrogant to assume that what you have in your hands is the absolute truth. . .

Only in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, or when the only 'proof' to support one's belief is the belief itself -- what is asserted without valid empirical evidence can also be dismissed without valid empirical evidence.

aghogday
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06 Apr 2022, 10:35 am

"What is asserted without valid empirical evidence
can be dismissed without valid empirical evidence."

It's So Rare 'These Days' Or Any Days Really to Find Anyone

Consistent With Integrity For The Statements They Make About Reality.

Of Course Again, Since Neuroscience Suggests That Humans Basically Hallucinate
Their Realities Now Based on The Hallucinations of The Realities They Co-Create Before

As Even My Top of the Line Psychiatrist that i still visit, even though i escaped Hell 8 Years
And 8 Months And 18 Days Ago, Agrees With This As He's Published in Neuroscience Journals too...

And That's Part of What We
Chatted About Yesterday as
He's Given me Appreciation Before
About the Insights into the Human Mind/
'SouL' DarK Thru LiGHT That i Share With Him That

He Uses to Help His Clients in the DarK Places of Life;

Same Appreciation Provided By my Old Psychotherapist And Old Psychiatrist,
With me through the DarK Days of Existence, Gave to me For the Assistance
i Provided

Them in
Insights they Hadn't Thought of
Before; And the First Psychiatrist Even

Quit His Private Practice And Started Teaching
Movement Therapy in a Hospital in South Florida
After Researching the All Natural Curative Effects of
Movement Therapy for Regulating Emotions And Integrating
Senses And Really Providing A Remedy At Core of What is Behind

So Much
Human
DarKness
in Life, Otherwise

Known in Science
Journals As Mental Illness...

True, He Said i Was An Inspiration
Then For Changing His Path Of Life;

i've Lived in the Valley; i've Been to
the Mountain Top and Still AM Climbing
Higher NoW in Autotelic Bliss of Moving and
Singing Meditative Flow in Balance of my Humanity...

i have a Lot of Room in Slack For Folks Who Haven't Traveled
the Paths i've Been on And Have Enough Cognitive Empathy to Give
Folks A Lot of Rope, Before They Hang Themselves in Paths i Haven't Taken in Life Yet too...

Anyway, it's Interesting that A Person, So In Demand of Empirical Evidence For What They Believe
in Life, Unless it May Be Dismissed By Others, Shows Such A Great Respect And Belief in What they Name God...

It's Easy for me to Provide

Empirical Evidence for God;

i Must Wonder What A Person Who
Suggests Now that A Truth may Be
Dismissed Without Empirical Evidence

Has to Use for Proof Their God Exists; Particularly,

If it is Just a Story That Suggests A Man Who Is Identified
As God is Resurrected From the Dead to Save Us All From

Eternal
Damnation
in A Fire; Or Perhaps

it is the God in the 'Old Testament'

That Somehow Overlooked 'Lot' Offering
Up His 'Virgin Daughters' For Rape to A Gang
Outside As He Valued His Virgin Daughters Less

Than the Stranger in His Home That Was in Danger
of the Same, Unless Some 'Material Good' Greater Was Offered Up to them...

True, Somehow That Old Testament God overlooked The Logic of That in Truth
And Turned the Wife of 'Lot' into A Pillar of Salt For Looking Back At the Destroyed City

And Saving
The Dude Who
Saw a Sacrifice
of His Virgin Daughters
For A Gang Rape By A Mob

Outside Greater Over the Rape of A
Stranger in His Home He didn't Know at all...

So Much For Respecting Family in 'Those Days of Old';
So Much For the Value of Women Compared to Males then
As They Are Still Valued Less than Males in Countries Adhering
to an Islam Religion too, Where Homosexual Folks Are Imprisoned
And Tortured And Killed too, Even if They Only Love Each Other and

Are Not Heterosexual
Men Who Want to Violently
Rape A Male Stranger in A Home

As A Form of Torture As Well...

'Funny' How Homosexual Men Got
Blamed For What Heterosexual Men
Wanted to Do to Violently Rape Men
That Has Nothing At All to Do With Love;
Same as When a Heterosexual Man Rapes A Woman...

True it Happens in Prisons too; Yet in this Case, the God
of the Old Testament overlooked The Sacrifice Attempt of
Lot's Virgin Daughters to Avoid the Humiliation of A Male Stranger in His Home...

And Again His
Wife Turned to
A Pillar of Salt

By That 'God'

Just looking Back
on a City Destroyed
By A Hypocritical God;

Yeah, i have a Muslim FRiEnD
Who Recently Suggested that
The Will Smith Incident Was Evidence
That Americans Have False Freedom in the United

States; i Brought up the Stoning of Lesbian Women Buried
to Their Chest And Stoned in Saudi Arabia, Indicating that
'Human Slight' is Much More Offensive to me Particularly As

Science Shows That Nature Develops More Empathic Less Competitive
Reproductive Leaning Homosexual Folks to Support The Entire Tribe
When Stress Hormones Are Released in the Womb That Indicate Population

Stresses Are Evident in the Environment
Same as the Rest of the Animal Kingdom

Too as Balance With the Rest of Nature
in Ways of Resources And Not Over-Consuming
Them is Vital to the Survival of the Species in Groups Currently Existing...

And i Also Provided Anecdotal Evidence That the Homosexual Folks i Know
Who Are my Relatives Are Among the Finest Examples of Loving Humans Around...

However, Even my Mother As Unconditionally Loving as She Was to me, Believed Muslim
Folks Were Going to Hell And So Were Homosexual Folks too As That Was the Lie She was

Told in Church
Without Any
Empirical

Evidence to
Support Any Truth
to Her Claim Propagated
By The Ignorance of the Religion She Believed in...

Did i Stop Loving Her For Her Ignorance in the Lies She
Believed in: No. Have i Stopped Loving my FRiEnD Who Doesn't
Support Homosexual Folks And Believes In An All Loving Merciful
Forgiving God Who Tortures Naughty Folks Forever who She Says She

Not Only Believes
in Yet Gives Great
Glory to in Worship and Respect:

Of Course Not, For i Am A Scientist
Too; i Understand Humans Basically

Hallucinate Their Realities As They Go
Based on the Hallucinations They Co-Create Before
That Means Humans May Bring Almost Every Conceivable
Dream to Nightmare

True in Fruition on Earth...

i Have No Problem Providing Proof God Exists.

Yet it Depends on the Definition of God of Course.

True i Can And Will Cherry Pick The New Testament And Even
Old Too Where Luke in 17:21 Says the Kingdom of God May

Only

Be Found Within Now; Or Sure Go
Back to the Old Psalms in the

Old Testament

And Look to the
Claim That Ye are
All 'Children' of God

True You May Find God
is 'Love' Too in the New Testament
Under 'the Word' As Reported By A Name of John...

Yet Again, i Do Appreciate Integrity of Beliefs Per Truth
in Human Beings i meet; Love Does Not Require Worship
And Love Does Not Fear Criticism As Love in Essence Never

Waivers

As Love Gives,
Shares, Cares, And
Heals With Mercy And
Forgiveness Never Ending

True Love Doesn't BeLieVE iN the
Death Penalty And Love Surely Doesn't

Believe in Torturing Naughty Folks Forever...

(Yet of Course, Some Folks Believe A God Of
Love Tortures Naughty Folks Forever too; Back
To Square One Root One Problems Humans Are at

Core, Not Rational)

Anyway, i told my FRiEnD i Respect Her Freedom
to Believe and Do As She Wills As True i Have No
Control Over That in Egypt Anyway And Neither Does Anyone Here...

She Seemed to Reciprocate The Sentiment At First in Respect of me
Then Went on to Write A Blog Post Asking Folks Not to Follow Her if

Her Beliefs Offended them...

Listen, my Mother's Beliefs
i Found Offensive And Irrational too...

However, Again, i Must Remember That
Humans Basically Hallucinate Their Realities
Now Based on the Hallucinations They Co-Create Before...

i Don't Have to Be Right or Wrong to Understand That Reality too...

The Truth is the
Human Condition
Is Not Rational; Read That
Again Until the Truth of the Human Condition SinkS in; Lately,
The News of the Human Condition NoW iT Seems Provides Proof

Enough...

The Majority of Folks in my Neighborhood Still Support
A President Who The Leaders of His Republican Party Admit
in Practice Incited A Deadly Insurrection to Over-Throw Part of Our

Representative Democracy in the Name of Having Any Freedom at
All in Our Country And That 'Dictator Wannabe Demagogue' Is Still A
Leader in Getting their Nomination to Be 'Dictator Wannabe Demagogue Again'

Even With The Example
of What Happens When that
Happens For the Whole World to
See For the Leader Putin Who is Doing
This Now By Attempting to Overthrow

The Democracy By Death and Destruction of Another Country Now....

It's True, it's Sodom And Gomorrah for Real Again, Yet We Must Look At The
Destruction

To See the
Evil of What
Happens When
Men Decide to Become Gods...

Or Support So-Called Last Prophets with
the Only And Last So-Called Truths Are Elevated

Above Below

the Meek And Poor and Last Who Inherit
The Kingdom of God Within Now Eternally
So Naked, Enough, Whole, Complete Not Even

Needing to
Grip A Gun
'With Their

Cold Hands'
till Death They
Part From Otherwise
Loving Paradise Now as God Is LoVE ReaL...

Anyway, My Proof For the God of Luke 17:21
And The Psalms And Newer Testaments That indicate
We aRE ALL Children of God Is Love And Sure Even in the
Gospel of Thomas Verse 37 That Similarly Relates Strip Your
Clothes Off and Dance on them With No Shame Finding the Living

God Within; Yes,

Whenever i take a
Selfie; Whenever i Take
A Photo of My Wife i See

Love And God the SaMe i Am

And Even Before Words At Age 3, Before
i could Speak At Four, i Could Clearly Feel
And Sense i Am A Leaf That Feeds The Green

of my Tree That Falls to Living Soils to Fertilize

New Souls of

Green

Sprouting

Up Resurrecting

Forests Whole Complete

Enough Naked Now AS Such

As DarK Creates LiGHT
NiGHT Creates DaY

As We Humans

May Create And

Co-Create A Paradise
of Love Within And On Earth
Now Together Stronger As God of Love

Or Fools Our Selves Now That We aRe
Some Smaller God Than All that is Now

Star DusT We Come From Star DusT We aRe
Star Dust WE REturn As Star DusT Continues to Exist...

Okay, Mr. Engineer, Provide Empirical Evidence of the God
You BeLiEVE iN Or Not As My God Is Irrefutably i AM Now

Man in the

Mirror And

LoVE iN the Picture
i Take of my Wife Now

Naked, Enough, Whole, Complete Love

Yes God Is WeLL And ALiVE iN Eden WHeRE i
Inhale Peace Exhale LoVE iN JoY oF LiGHT Giving,
Sharing, Caring, Healing, Loving All With Least Harm Now...

Love is Without Limit And Full Measure; Yet It's True i have
the Ability to Take A Photo Of Love (God) True... And As Far
As Going Empty Pocketed Out in the Village And Spreading A
Non-Verbal Message of Freedom in Dance for 16,433 Miles Now Loving All
That Is God in 103 Months It's True Some Folks Have Noticed i'm Here As my

FRiEnDS Often
Appreciate me
From Greater Distances
Than i know Like Yesterday
When my Wife Was Returning

Some Gardening Stuff at Lowe's
And A Lovely Young Cashier told
me Sir, You Are A Living Legend in
Our 'Facebook Group' As For Years They
Have Been Inspired by the Freedom And Energy

of the Balance And Flow
of Moving Meditation
in Bliss of Dance in the
Kingdom of Heaven on Earth

And Within

i Bring Everywhere i Travel in
my Metro Area Now For 103 Months
As That is Similar Feedback i've Been
Receiving in Appreciation Since 2014
About A Year in the Freedom of the Loving Endeavor

For This Life Now; This Love Now; This Miracle of Breath Now;

It's True, There Are More Ways Than Even
Words of Love to Give; There is Love That

Wears no

God

of the
Green Dollar Bill...

There is Love That

Simply Dances and
Sings And Feeds an
Inspiration Even Higher than
Food or Drink; Yawn, It's Simple;

i am a Litmus Test for the Conservative
Closed Minded Folks and Open Minded
Liberal Folks Among Us; Except i am Clever

Enough Not to
Be 'Crucified'

As i am Worth
More Alive than
Dead in this Only Life New Now;

Yes, This Kingdom of Heaven Within
For Real Now And Truly At Least Empirically
Measurable in the Ways i've Presented Above...

Yawn, It's 'Funny' And True How When You Always Love With
Mercy And Forgiveness LoVE ReTuRNS to You As Love Never Leaves

NoW It's True

There Are
Living God's

And Dead God's too;

Litmus Test in Human Terms: Love That is True And Real;

i Don't Discard Human Beings, Even When They Discard me...

After All Is Said and Done With me; Sticks and Stones May Break my

Bones

Yet the
Dance And
Song of Love
Continues for ReaL ETeRNaLLY Now

And Typically Folks Don't Mess with
The Naked Guy Dancing Who Still Leg
Presses Up to 1520 Pounds at Close to 62 Years

Old; True, i Don't Have to Even Sting Like A Bee
At 245 Pounds; The Fact i Can And Do Float me

On Terrestrial
Land Like

A Butterfly
of Balance in Flow

Is Enough So Far to Deter Any Attempts...

Other than That the Average Science Assessed Human Attention
Span of Less Than Three Seconds; Yes, Shorter than
the Attention Span of a Gold Fish is Enough to Make

me Practically

too Big Online

To See Haha
And Invisible This
Way Except for those

Who Are Able to Rise
A Bit Higher Than the
Average of 'Couch Potato' Humanity now...

Those Folks Do Exist Hehe; Links And Quotes
Available for Empirical Evidence too... HAha...

Anyway, i'd Love to Hear the Engineer's Evidence For
God; i've Surely Presented Mine By Even Older Definitions Real And True (Love)

Anyway too, See You Folks Later, Still Have Another 56 Thousand Word Bi-Weekly

Poem to

Put

Together...

-Invisible Dude...

Yet It's True There
Are A Few Who Are Able
To 'See' Most All of me

And

Appreciate me in Ways
That Most Folks Never Experience

in Life, Just For Being Free Loving Life Slaying
All Fears With Play Loving It All; With No Dollar

Bills in my Pockets to

Make God...

As That God
Is Truly Invisible
to me; True, i Have
No Way to See "IT' In 'the Bank', Hehe...

iT ALL BeLongs to one(s) Who

iNHeRiT(S) Freedom of my Love (God)...

_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick

Mona Pereth
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16 Apr 2022, 7:37 pm

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

I did want generalised, intellectual answers for curiosity so thanks.

My generalized, intellectual answer is that there is no good generalized, intellectual answer. A good answer can only be situation-specific, depending on what the disagreement is about, how important the friend is, and what the friend's personality is like.

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

My particular situation is pretty mundane, not a debate or anything.

A friend and her sister ganged up on me and embarrassed me in 'public'. This is denied and I'm told not to take things too seriously. I am sensitive.

This got me frustrated to the point where I pretty much ended the friendship by stubbornly and, in hindsight, too aggressively asserting I was right. She is never wrong and never concedes an inch so I lost my cool.

This sounds to me like the kind of situation where no one is "right" or "wrong" in an absolute sense. It's all about personal feelings and cultural values.

IMO friends should respect each other's feelings and try to avoid embarrassing each other in public. If a friend is unable or unwilling to avoid embarrassing you in public, that's a significant incompatibility -- regardless of your reasons for feeling embarrassed and regardless of your friend's reasons for refusing to change their behavior, and regardless of whether anyone else deems those reasons to be "right" or "wrong."

Only you can judge whether this incompatibility is severe enough to justify breaking off the friendship.

If you want to revive the friendship, I would suggest trying to discuss this matter at a time when you can both be calm.

_________________
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16 Apr 2022, 8:34 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

In this situation I feel the question to ask is whether or not people who refuse to accept the validity of your feelings are really friends to start with.

The tempering question is to look at when they discounted your feelings: while riled up and on a roll (meaning they didn't really think it through) or when it was brought up later, with you explaining that it hurt you.

The fact that you felt hurt is an undeniable truth that real friends will acknowledge and want to mitigate in the future.

Whether or not their actions were socially acceptable and can have been expected to cause hurt is subject to opinion.

But even when a friend disagrees about whether or not something should have caused hurt, they should be concerned that it did, in fact, cause hurt, and not try to turn it around and throw it back on you.

People have a right to their feelings, and all feelings are valid, as the saying goes. There are, of course, different ways to express your hurt, and some are much better than others. When you state the reality of your hurt, don't engage in hurtful behavior by using critical words or casting blame. In my experience, it works best to make a simple statement, such as "I was hurt when X happened."

All very important points here, IMO.

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16 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

I have an illness that can make me very on edge and sensitive so I know I over react that's why I haven't said what it was.

It basically happened on an internet stream I thought I was friends with 3 sisters who all share a stream together streaming videogames. I was friends on Facebook with 2 of them no problem, we talk regularly, and I sent a friend request to the third one whilst a stream was happening and one of the sisters even vetted me saying I was cool. (She only knew my first name) We then talked about the stream in Dm's occasionally since last October.

Anyway a stream a couple days ago she asks me on stream in front of an audience how I found her Facebook and she didn't know who I was and that she thought I was a even perhaps a co worker. The tone felt pretty accusatory.

(I "found" her because I saw they all interact publicly on my facebook news feed and they call her by her real name on stream sometimes.)

I said I was vetted after she seemingly had a problem and the other sister was really aggressive "what do you MEAN vetted"

I suspect that a lot of people forget things they say on social media, especially in a context where a lot of different things are going on all at once, such as a streaming game. She may have honestly forgotten that she "vetted" you. Or perhaps the things she said in your favor might not fit her personal definition of the word "vetting."

Perhaps, the next time anyone "vets" you in a context like this, it might be a good idea to take a screenshot, so you can conveniently remind them (or show it to other people) if an issue arises.

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

So I dm'd the aggressive one saying why was she like that and I was embarrassed and you know the rest. The one who 'vetted' me kept quiet.

Did you ever ask her why she kept quiet?

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

I was made to feel like a creep in front of everyone.

Sounds very unpleasant.

jimmyjazzuk wrote:

The only one I fell out with was the more aggressive one. I guess the other sister just forgot what had happened.

Indeed that seems likely.

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Would you rather be right or keep a friend ?