Israel and Iran ‘A fork in the road’

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No? They aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not sure what your point is.
It seems like when I'm talking with Zionists the logic goes:
Does this country hate Israel out of moral outrage? Then they're just hateful and irrational and they should devote more time to improving their own country!
Does this country hate Israel out of self-serving geopolitics? Then they're just cynical amoral barbarians who only pretend to have morals when it's convenient!

And if it's some combination of both, then the dismissal becomes a combination of both.

Again, Zionists cannot seem to decide on how they feel on this matter.

Does this country's population hate Israel as well as the government? Then that country's government is just being led around by their arbitrarily hateful electorate! (Also, shouldn't this be a good thing? Zionists never shut up about how undemocratic Israel's critics are, yet when a democratic government condemns them, it either isn't ACTUALLY a democracy or it is just a mindless mouthpiece for an ignorant populace.) Make up your mind.
Does this country's population not hate Israel, and it's only the government doing so? Then the government is ignoring the will of the people and isn't very democratic at all, now is it?
Again, please make up your mind.

The immutable Zionist cynicism towards Israel's critics kills any ability to have a nuanced discussion critical of Israel.

Last edited by roronoa79 on 07 Oct 2024, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

First thing that needs to happen is the U.S.A. needs to stop unconditionally supporting Israel. Only then will Israel be reined in and need to negotiate.

In order for the U.S.A. to stop unconditionally supporting Israel, Zionism needs to diminish, and sympathy for Palestinians needs to grow, among both Jews and Christians.

See also the following threads here on WP:

- Critiques of Zionism by Jews
- Christian Zionism
- Palestinian Christians
- Israeli settler support infrastructure here in the U.S.A.

You forgot to mention sympathy for Palestinian people from their supposed allies.
the Oslo Accords happened before without US support being a prerequisite. US support for Israel will always be a feature of the middle east for obvious geopolitical reasons.
the ball is clearly in the Arab's court. If Palestine's neighbours, Iran and Saudi Arabia really cared for their fellow Arabs (the Palestinian) their billions in collective oil money should have been used for Palestinian education health and employment. Not pumping money to various extremist groups or for corrupt evil sheikhs who live like emperors at the expense of their own people.

The Oslo Accord 1 was signed in Washington DC (after secret negotiations in Oslo). So obviously the U.S.A. was involved. (See Wikipedia article on the Oslo Accords.)


The USA also had "obvious geopolitical reasons" for supporting Apartheid-era South Africa, until it became just too embarrassing.


Since the U.S.A. is the most powerful player, I would say that the ball is in our court. We just need enough of us to wake up and put enough pressure on our politicians to counteract the pro-Israel lobby.

(Hopefully we can manage to do this without stirring up general anti-Jewish bigotry, and/or hopefully we can manage to counteract whatever anti-Jewish bigotry does get stirred up as a side-effect of denouncing the Israeli government's crimes against humanity. Hopefully amplifying the voices of anti-Zionist Jews, in particular, will help a lot toward helping other people not conflate Jews in general with the government of Israel and its crimes.)

We in the U.S.A. can't solve Israel/Palestine's problems all by ourselves, of course. But we can take the obvious first step of making our support for Israel conditional on Israel's behavior.

As for how a true lasting solution will be attained, I think that will require dialogue among religious leaders as well as negotiations among political leaders. (If another rabbi like Menachem Froman emerges, hopefully the Israeli government will listen next time.)

I also don't think we should necessarily try to push Israel toward a "two-state solution." Rather, we should push Israel to make progress toward some equitable solution, giving them a choice of (1) the two-state solution, OR (2) a single bi-national state with equal rights for all, OR (3) something in-between that somehow manages to be much more equitable than what they have now.

By the way, Iran is not an "Arab" country.

Israel was behaving when HAMAS did Oct7. they livestreamed taunting the IDF with images of female hostages getting **.....male hostages getting tortured and executed. What other country would be expected to sit and watch their people get massacred and tortured and be told to send love hearts, chocolates and flowers to HAMAS?

Although Hamas's attack on Oct 7 was a brutal over-reaction IMO, it was NOT totally unprovoked. Like previous, lesser attacks by Hamas, it was, if I remember correctly, provoked by the combo of:

(1) Yet another round of evictions of Palestinians to make way for Israeli Jewish settlers, and

(2) Israeli police and/or soldiers entering the Al Aqsa compound on the Temple Mount, contrary to international agreement. (The Temple Mount is supposed to be policed by a Jordanian Muslim police force.)


It was only to be expected that Israel would respond with some military action. But it could have been a lot more focused and killed a lot fewer people.

Imagine seriously believing that was an honest assessment of what's occurred.

There, I fixed it.

Last edited by roronoa79 on 08 Oct 2024, 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Remember guys: It's not an atrocity if Israel did it.
That's why Israel is so well-behaved.

/sarc

It was not an over-reaction Mona. It was a planned attack on civilians at a music festival, many of whom they knew were foreign nationals. I am reminded of Arafat's attempt at taking Jewish and foreign civilian hostages on a French airline at Entebbe airport in 1976. Had Mossad not rescued them they likely would have ended up the same.

You are asking why the Jewish response was so brutal? Its because support for terrorism is universal in Gaza
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-12-14/

Palestinians mark events like Oct 7 as a day of celebration
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-08/ ... /104442800

I am not judging Palestinians, the common man has been brainwashed for several generations believing in a military solution. What is disappointing is when middle class Americans think terror is a legitimate response in 2024 to a conflict.

The fact that the attack was planned does not prove that it wasn't a response to some provocation by the Israeli government. It was Hamas's planned response to the next such provocation. (The attack on the music festival, itself, was NOT part of the original plan, but the music festival just happened to be there at the time.)


I don't consider the extreme brutality of either side to be "legitimate." But (1) both sides see themselves as responding to specific provocations and (2) Israel's brutality has been, by far, the more extreme of the two, at least in the current conflict.

the attack on the music festival is also an example of opportunistic predatory behaviour. You ignored the reuter's article with a poll showing 3 out 4 Palestinians supported the rape and murder of women and children. I have seen a recent visit by an American youtuber in Palestinian territories interviewing Palestinian women who happily agree with HAMAS treatment of Israeli civilians. Again I don't pass judgement, but there was no mention of "provocation" only a win, like you would hear from soccor fans celebrating a win over an opposition team.

Marching in the streets with Palestinians shouting "from the river to the sea" and "death to jews" and flying HAMAS and Hezbollah flags is basically endorsing one side's terrorism.

Protesting Israel's killing of Palestinian civilians is legitimate, but joining in with "celebrating" HAMAS for Oct 7 is another matter.

If you're marching in support of Israel you're marching in support of ethnic cleansing, even if you're unwilling to acknowledge it.

How many non-Jews have you seen marching for Israel?

I don't assume it's only Jews.
Why do you make that assumption? Lots of outspoken Zionists aren't Jewish.