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babybird
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15 Jan 2025, 1:49 pm

Seriously don't understand any of that


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TwilightPrincess
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15 Jan 2025, 2:16 pm

Vv. means verses. I was just pointing out problematic verses in the 23rd chapter of Ezekiel which is in the Old Testament. Well, the entire chapter is pretty disturbing although it’s symbolic. The sisters in the story are supposed to stand for Samaria and Jerusalem, so the chapter is a metaphor for their sins and God's punishment (which is also sinful IMO). There’s just a lot of sex and violence in that chapter.


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babybird
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15 Jan 2025, 2:18 pm

Oh yeah I tried to read it but I couldn't work it out

It was going on about fire and cherubims or something

Was I reading the wrong one


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babybird
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15 Jan 2025, 2:19 pm

Yeah I think I was


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TwilightPrincess
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15 Jan 2025, 2:22 pm

^ It sounds like it.

Here’s the entire chapter:

The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

5 “Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians—warriors 6 clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. 7 She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. 8 She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her.

9 “Therefore I delivered her into the hands of her lovers, the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. 10 They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword. She became a byword among women, and punishment was inflicted on her.

11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister. 12 She too lusted after the Assyrians—governors and commanders, warriors in full dress, mounted horsemen, all handsome young men. 13 I saw that she too defiled herself; both of them went the same way.

14 “But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans portrayed in red, 15 with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea. 16 As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her naked body, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

22 “Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will stir up your lovers against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side— 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, the men of Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, and they will punish you according to their standards. 25 I will direct my jealous anger against you, and they will deal with you in fury. They will cut off your noses and your ears, and those of you who are left will fall by the sword. They will take away your sons and daughters, and those of you who are left will be consumed by fire. 26 They will also strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry. 27 So I will put a stop to the lewdness and prostitution you began in Egypt. You will not look on these things with longing or remember Egypt anymore.

28 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to deliver you into the hands of those you hate, to those you turned away from in disgust. 29 They will deal with you in hatred and take away everything you have worked for. They will leave you stark naked, and the shame of your prostitution will be exposed. Your lewdness and promiscuity 30 have brought this on you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols. 31 You have gone the way of your sister; so I will put her cup into your hand.

32 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“You will drink your sister’s cup,
a cup large and deep;
it will bring scorn and derision,
for it holds so much.
33 You will be filled with drunkenness and sorrow,
the cup of ruin and desolation,
the cup of your sister Samaria.
34 You will drink it and drain it dry
and chew on its pieces—
and you will tear your breasts.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.

35 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Since you have forgotten me and turned your back on me, you must bear the consequences of your lewdness and prostitution.”

36 The Lord said to me: “Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then confront them with their detestable practices, 37 for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them. 38 They have also done this to me: At that same time they defiled my sanctuary and desecrated my Sabbaths. 39 On the very day they sacrificed their children to their idols, they entered my sanctuary and desecrated it. That is what they did in my house.

40 “They even sent messengers for men who came from far away, and when they arrived you bathed yourself for them, applied eye makeup and put on your jewelry. 41 You sat on an elegant couch, with a table spread before it on which you had placed the incense and olive oil that belonged to me.

42 “The noise of a carefree crowd was around her; drunkards were brought from the desert along with men from the rabble, and they put bracelets on the wrists of the woman and her sister and beautiful crowns on their heads. 43 Then I said about the one worn out by adultery, ‘Now let them use her as a prostitute, for that is all she is.’ 44 And they slept with her. As men sleep with a prostitute, so they slept with those lewd women, Oholah and Oholibah. 45 But righteous judges will sentence them to the punishment of women who commit adultery and shed blood, because they are adulterous and blood is on their hands.

46 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Bring a mob against them and give them over to terror and plunder. 47 The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters and burn down their houses.

48 “So I will put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not imitate you. 49 You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.”


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DuckHairback
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15 Jan 2025, 2:31 pm

That was pretty hot sauce until things took a dark turn around verse 22.


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babybird
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15 Jan 2025, 2:38 pm

Yeah I think people need to be taught how to read this book

I didn't know it was like that


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TwilightPrincess
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15 Jan 2025, 3:00 pm

I think of the Bible as a collection of books or maybe even as a miniature library. There’s horrifying passages in some parts while others are quite nice, even poetic. There’s just a little bit of everything in there. Of course, even specific books were written by various writers. The book of Genesis, for example, is thought to have been composed by various sources from various time periods and was stitched and edited together by priests. The same could be said for other books in the Old Testament. It’s just remarkable how much went into their creation, including preexisting myths. (Mis)translation added layers as well.

A lot of believers don’t know that stuff. Some think of the Bible purely as the Word of God which can be quite horrifying depending on the passage. If it’s solely the Word of God, people have to contend with how much they want to obey which can lead to issues like folks thinking that they are supposed to be bigoted even if they aren’t naturally so or that they are supposed to use corporal punishment on their kids.

It would be cool if the Bible could be taught in school from an academic perspective, but I don’t think that will likely happen any time soon in America. Some still advocate for it to be taught in a religious sense in school.


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15 Jan 2025, 3:57 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I think of the Bible as a collection of books or maybe even as a miniature library. There’s horrifying passages in some parts while others are quite nice, even poetic. There’s just a little bit of everything in there. Of course, even specific books were written by various writers. The book of Genesis, for example, is thought to have been composed by various sources from various time periods and was stitched and edited together by priests. The same could be said for other books in the Old Testament. It’s just remarkable how much went into their creation, including preexisting myths. (Mis)translation added layers as well.

A lot of believers don’t know that stuff. Some think of the Bible purely as the Word of God which can be quite horrifying depending on the passage. If it’s solely the Word of God, people have to contend with how much they want to obey which can lead to issues like folks thinking that they are supposed to be bigoted even if they aren’t naturally so or that they are supposed to use corporal punishment on their kids.

It would be cool if the Bible could be taught in school from an academic perspective, but I don’t think that will likely happen any time soon in America. Some still advocate for it to be taught in a religious sense in school.

Yep, and there's some disagreements between groups as to which books should be included and which ones shouldn't. From what I understand, Revalations was almost left out. I've heard people suggest that the Gnostic Gospels could have been included, but that's not clear to me.

There's also issues related to which version and translation to go with. It's rather problematic for people to claim that it is the literal word of God when there's different translations that don't always agree with each other on some of the points.



TwilightPrincess
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15 Jan 2025, 5:17 pm

The decision for which books were or weren’t included was often a bit arbitrary although intensely debated, and there certainly is some variation depending on the branch of Christianity.

I just saw something silly on a Christian site about the Gnostic gospels:

Quote:
[T]he Gnostic gospels are forgeries, fraudulently written in the names of the Apostles in order to give them a legitimacy in the early church.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Gnostic-gospels.html

That would also describe many of the books that are in most New Testaments although they wouldn’t admit it. For instance, here they claim Matthew was written by Matthew when it was written later by an anonymous writer, and here they claim that 1 Timothy, which claims to be a letter to Timothy from Paul, was written by Paul when scholars say that it was most likely a forgery. They even claim that Moses most likely wrote and edited Genesis. :lol: This sort of nonsense about authorship, dating, etc. makes it very challenging for people to learn about the Bible. Vast amounts of bias are all too often presented as fact.

Translation is a fascinating topic to explore. It can play a significant role on belief. I typically use the NRSV when I’m citing scripture although I compare and research specific passages sometimes and have found startling discrepancies now and then. Of course, sometimes I intentionally read awful translations for fun. The translation I grew up with was a particularly bad one, and the worst passages were most often central ones to the belief system.


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funeralxempire
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15 Jan 2025, 6:08 pm

babybird wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
They should be viewed in the same way the Iliad and the Epic of Gilgamesh are viewed.


Ok I'll check that out if it's a real thing


http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mes ... gilgamesh/

Enjoy.


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15 Jan 2025, 8:32 pm

I might not be a fan of the bible but No way! It's part of history and culture and show's human nature.



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16 Jan 2025, 2:14 am

I vote no because I will never give up my Bible.I plan on teaching my future kids the Bible if I have any.



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16 Jan 2025, 10:12 am

I don't think any book should be banned including The Bible.


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16 Jan 2025, 2:50 pm

No, it's a tempting thought but I think if it got banned then it would just make matters worse. It would become "the book the control freaks don't want you to read." Let them read it, let them read anything. Just try to teach them critical thinking so they don't get hypnotised by any book or any other form of communication. But if they insist on letting it hypnotise them, it's their choice as long as they don't start egging others on to follow in their footsteps.

I think a lot of people take the Bible too seriously as a guide to how to behave now, instead of viewing it as an interesting insight into how certain people in ancient times used to think. It still surprises me that the Bible has the power over some people's minds that it does. Somebody wrote something down on a bit of paper telling us what we should be doing and thinking. Doesn't mean to say we have to believe it. Only children believe everything they're told. If they're lucky, they become adults and learn to evaluate words, and pick the ones that work.

Just my 2 cents.



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17 Jan 2025, 11:45 am

I do think the Bible and the Quran need a serious revision, though.


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