Anyone afraid of heaven?
Angelus-Mortis wrote:
Well, I'm free with that. As I do mathematics, I understand that there is more than one way of doing things, and sometimes, people prefer certain ways of doing things, or that people choose to do certain things that I might view as illogical or irrational because it is impractical, slow or has a low probability of success--however, that doesn't mean I want them to do things differently. It's their life and their business; as long as they're not telling me how to do things, I don't have a problem with it. I suppose you're trying to imply that "rational" depends on how I want to achieve something. If I had to choose to define "rationa" in the real sense and not an abstract one, I'd go with the last definition--one that has the highest probability of success.
I use the abstract sense because "real" is more of a construct to me. It often assumes ends and I hate making assumptions that are unnecessary for these matters.
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According to evolution and science, we weren't originally created, nor were we created for a purpose. The only inherent "purpose", if you wish to call it that, we had for existing was surviving, and that's not even a moral purpose. Although I suppose people like to stick to the "original purpose" story because it's more comforting.
Well, people like it because it is more comforting and partially because they feel it is insufficient for describing the world. Whether or not man was artificially created, he does not feel like a machine, he feels, he thinks, and he has morality and a system that does not explain those elements of him is going to leave him unsatisfied because he needs a way to deal with his desire for purpose, and where there are distinctions between kindness and malevolence, death and life. These distinctions are not made in any personally meaningful sense outside of a "higher purpose" story really.
I'm perfectly fine with having your own moral purpose that you create for yourself, so long as it benefits other people or doesn't harm them.
_________________
231st Anniversary Dedication to Carl Friedrich Gauss:
http://angelustenebrae.livejournal.com/15848.html
Arbitraris id veneficium quod te ludificat. Arbitror id formam quod intellego.
Ignorationi est non medicina.
username88 wrote:
Nambo wrote:
..the things we where originally created to do before Satan stole us from God.
And just exactly what is that supposed to mean?
Well, we where meant to live on the Erath serving and worshipping God, Satan though, wanted this worship for himself so he incited man to leave God.
This is why the Bible tells us the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
This is why there are so many wars and death etc.
Armaggedon is the war where God takes back control of us.
Angelus-Mortis wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with having your own moral purpose that you create for yourself, so long as it benefits other people or doesn't harm them.
The major issue with that is that this doesn't tie into our own use of the term morality. When we use the term morality, we speak of absolutes, we often use the terms good and evil, justice and injustice, this kind of dualism at least is common in America. To have a morality that is just a subjective construct is hardly what people seek, it is purposeless and has no ethical truth guiding it. There is in truth no difference found in that idea between giving all of one's life to helping the homeless than in raping small children, that disturbs most people on some level. I note that you make a distinction on helping and harming people, but truly, there is no ethical mechanism any more to make that distinction without a metaphysical mechanism to set morality. Now, to claim that this is the truth of the universe is one statement, but to say that this truth is deeply unsatisfactory is still another one that most people would make. I believe that I have heard of one Christian apologist who said that without Christianity/higher ethics, the final result of morality is in the ethical thoughts of Marquis de Sade.
Nambo wrote:
More likely you will be as the rest of us that are part of the Ressurection here on Earth where in perfection you will be looking after animals and gardening, the things we where originally created to do before Satan stole us from God.
I actually think that would be a beautiful world, the though of living in such a paradise is actually very appealing, but the question is, is it really true? would be possible that it turns out to be just a myth after all? That's a question I made myself when I thought about what happens after someone dies and all the religious stuff you hear.
Obviously people have tried to explain what happens when someone dies and the mystery about it, what happens to the conscience of a human being after they're gone, etc. In which a lot of religions have different views and opinions about it. But what is actually the truth, which one from ALL of them?
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How do you know you are in line for heaven anyway?
Those who go to Heaven are the ones that died a death like his, (Jesus) and they are to rule as kings over the Earth.
(This is the heavenly governmnet you pray for in the Lords prayer, "Let thy Kingdom come")
Those who go to Heaven are the ones that died a death like his, (Jesus) and they are to rule as kings over the Earth.
(This is the heavenly governmnet you pray for in the Lords prayer, "Let thy Kingdom come")
That's a good question. Arguments about who is going to heaven and who is not, which is interesting when you see that not all agree with it, not all have the same ideas. For one sect or religion certain people go to heaven, while for others, they don't. We finally don't really know who is going and who is not in the end. That if there is a heaven.
_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?
greenblue wrote:
Nambo wrote:
More likely you will be as the rest of us that are part of the Ressurection here on Earth where in perfection you will be looking after animals and gardening, the things we where originally created to do before Satan stole us from God.
I actually think that would be a beautiful world, the though of living in such a paradise is actually very appealing, but the question is, is it really true? would be possible that it turns out to be just a myth after all? That's a question I made myself when I thought about what happens after someone dies and all the religious stuff you hear.
Obviously people have tried to explain what happens when someone dies and the mystery about it, what happens to the conscience of a human being after they're gone, etc. In which a lot of religions have different views and opinions about it. But what is actually the truth, which one from ALL of them?
Quote:
How do you know you are in line for heaven anyway?
Those who go to Heaven are the ones that died a death like his, (Jesus) and they are to rule as kings over the Earth.
(This is the heavenly governmnet you pray for in the Lords prayer, "Let thy Kingdom come")
Those who go to Heaven are the ones that died a death like his, (Jesus) and they are to rule as kings over the Earth.
(This is the heavenly governmnet you pray for in the Lords prayer, "Let thy Kingdom come")
That's a good question. Arguments about who is going to heaven and who is not, which is interesting when you see that not all agree with it, not all have the same ideas. For one sect or religion certain people go to heaven, while for others, they don't. We finally don't really know who is going and who is not in the end. That if there is a heaven.
Hi Greenback, all I can suggest is get a Bible and read it all.
You certainly wont get any answers about God from anywhere else because thats all he left us, one book.
Religions are all run by Satan, this is what he meant when he said the wicked one sows seeds of weeds in amongst the seeds of wheat.
A good clue is that when Satan was misleading Man away from God, he promised that Man would not die, whereas God had said he would die.
Now we plainly do die, but Satans religions all promise this we go off and live quite happily elsewhere in a differant form, whereas the Bible tells us, "A live dog is better than a dead Lion", "for the dead no nothing".
Its only Jesus death that buys back your life in the Resurrection, and all the bad done in this 6000 year test of who has the right to rule man, gets undone and Gods original and happy purpose for mann is restored.
"The meek will inherit the Earth"
Why is it that so many people think God is such an imbecile? If he is all powerful and all knowing and is aware of everything going on and everything that will go on then either he is monstrously stupid to permit so much misery to so many innocent people or things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
Nambo wrote:
username88 wrote:
Nambo wrote:
..the things we where originally created to do before Satan stole us from God.
And just exactly what is that supposed to mean?
Well, we where meant to live on the Erath serving and worshipping God, Satan though, wanted this worship for himself so he incited man to leave God.
This is why the Bible tells us the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
This is why there are so many wars and death etc.
Armaggedon is the war where God takes back control of us.
To serve and worship that god for what purpose? I see nothing significantly beneficial for anyone or anything, not even the self from doing such a thing. Now, why would the bible say the world is lying in the power of the (so called "wicked") one? If your god claims to be so high and mighty. Satan does not want every man to worship him, he has his own image of the world. Although it is not yet achieved, as Ive said before the world still relies on its current balance, where there must be negative where there is positive. This of course includes wars and death. Not to metion that wars (and certainly death) has been around since the existance of man. Its the balance the universe has been existing on since the beginning of time, so there is no real logical reason to blame evil on Satan. I dont fall for biblical trickery, I am aware of its true image. The right hand path is losing, his image is near. Take a look around you, open your eyes and you will see. Open your eye and you will grow.
_________________
"In sin I want to live... Under the freezing moon"
~Gaamalzagoth
Sand wrote:
Why is it that so many people think God is such an imbecile? If he is all powerful and all knowing and is aware of everything going on and everything that will go on then either he is monstrously stupid to permit so much misery to so many innocent people or things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
To sum it up breifly, Satan convinced Man he would be better off under Satans rulership than Gods, free to do whatever he pleased, he also raised the question of who had the right to rule Man.
So, for a period of 6000 years, God has done no more than let us enjoy our freedom from his rulership, to see if we like it, to let us see how we get on.
Sounds like you are in the same camp as I, namely that we would be better off with God ruling us again, better say the Lords Prayer then , "Let thy Kingdom come, let thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"...because its not being done at the momenet, but it will, and al the damage of this little experiment will be undone.
But whatever God permits is happening. If He decides to permit Satan to create misery then that is God's decision. God is responsible and fully aware of all the horrible thing occurring because He is in total control and is totally aware of the consequences of his decisions.
Or, is He?
Sand wrote:
Why is it that so many people think God is such an imbecile? If he is all powerful and all knowing and is aware of everything going on and everything that will go on then either he is monstrously stupid to permit so much misery to so many innocent people or things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
The problem of evil, yeah, actually there is basically 1 idea about that, God thinks that suffering is worth the gains from allowing it. This can either be that man is free to choose and God values free will more than welfare, or that God is working towards a greater good that nobody can know, both positions are tenable assuming a God because the very purposes of God are difficult to know and usually God is defined as the source of morality meaning that he is good by merely being consistent.
Sand wrote:
But whatever God permits is happening. If He decides to permit Satan to create misery then that is God's decision. God is responsible and fully aware of all the horrible thing occurring because He is in total control and is totally aware of the consequences of his decisions.
Or, is He?
Or, is He?
Right, that is a good argument. Some do argue that God's omniscience means that he must on some level be foreordaining all evil for his purposes. Some argue that God doesn't perfectly know the future, this path is taken because if the future is known then people cannot make indeterminate decisions based upon the way that their life is currently going and thus the world can be controlled. Some people do try to maintain omniscience and free will, but usually those arguments sound logically strained. Some of these people would take the argument that logic is flawed though, at least when dealing with the divine, which is a position that can be taken, it just silences further inquiry unless they allow for the logical premise that logic is imperfect to be assessed via logic.
Sand wrote:
If suffering were the exclusive experience of people who have control and understanding of their actions there might be a small justification for it but there is much suffering of newborn babies with imperfections and diseases from birth. Does God control this?
It really depends on theological views, there is some debate in Christianity on the full nature of the sovereignty of God. Some would say yes though.
