my problems with islam
richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind
jewish people dont force thier religion on anyone else. but christians and islam do. so it comes down to this
if god had a son and he died on a cross you went the christian way
if god did not have a son and jesus died on a cross but he replaced him with someone else
then you are a muslim
personally, even if im not a religious person, this seems suspect.
http://www.pmuna.org/
http://progressivemuslims.tripod.com/index2.html
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html
I had a look at some of them.
Abu Zaid steadfastly maintains that he is a pious Muslim, but contends that the Koran's manifest content -- for example, the often archaic laws about the treatment of women for which Islam is infamous -- is much less important than its complex, regenerative, and spiritually nourishing latent content. The orthodox Islamic view, Abu Zaid claims, is stultifying; it reduces a divine, eternal, and dynamic text to a fixed human interpretation with no more life and meaning than "a trinket ... a talisman ... or an ornament."
For a while Abu Zaid remained in Egypt and sought to refute the charges of apostasy, but in the face of death threats and relentless public harassment he fled with his wife from Cairo to Holland, calling the whole affair "a macabre farce." Sheikh Youssef al-Badri, the cleric whose preachings inspired much of the opposition to Abu Zaid, was exultant. "We are not terrorists; we have not used bullets or machine guns, but we have stopped an enemy of Islam from poking fun at our religion.... No one will even dare to think about harming Islam again."
Being a Christian is and always was believing that the only way to God is Thru Jesus. Being Muslim (as I understand) is and always was believing that the Koran is the word of Allah as transcribed by the prophet Muhammad.
So, Abu Zaid would be about as Islamic as Calvin and Luther were Catholic. Surely if you don't believe the Koran is the word of God, you are not Muslim. If you want to say this bit is ok for me, but I don't go along with that bit, you can't call yourself a Muslim, you are something else.
Just like I have a lot of respect for Buddism and agree with much of what they believe, but I am not Buddist. Adu Zaid is not Muslim.
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
Jews (conservative religious ones) think that they are God's chosen people, and there was never a commandment to spread their beliefs, except within their own tribes. So they are not obnoxious about converting others, but are sometimes seen as stand-offish or clannish. Judaism is an ethnic religion - it is conceived of as being only for people that are part of that group.
Some Christians and Muslims do force their religion on others. Most do not. These religions are universalist - they believe they have a truth that all mankind will benefit from, and both scriptures say that tribal differences are not important. Hinduism is sorta between an ethnic and universalist religion. Buddhism is universalist, but usually not so pushy to convert. And it may or may not be a religion, depending on which type of Buddhism. Shinto (Japan) is ethnic - strictly for Japanese.
http://www.pmuna.org/
http://progressivemuslims.tripod.com/index2.html
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html
It seems from an Islamic point of view its very heretical and Abu Zaid is effectively "excommunicated". So, is a comparison to Luther and the Catholic Church unreasonable?
It seems to me that there are some parallels. And if what is practiced in Saudi Arabia is Islam, what Abu Zaid and other "moderates" preach is not Islam, just as Luther and Calvin did not preach Catholicism.
Interested in your comments
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
i want a muslim to answer me
1. why the angel gabriel is the holy spirit
2. who replaced jesus on the cross
thank you
1- gabriel is the name of this HIGH ranking angel. created by God, and designed by God, to do what he ordered him to do. that is why is "holy"...there's not too much of an explanation more than that.
2- it is not said in quran, then it is nowhere in islam.(for those who consider the quran as only book of law in islam...those who consider hadith and quran as sources of laws do not have an explanation to that either)
to add something important about jesus and his death
jesus in the quran dies a regular death. that's the real tranlation, but traditionalists who rely on "hadith" to translate the quran dont get some words the exact way they should be translated and jump into made up stories as, jesus wasnt killed and will return to earth. in the quran there's 0 verses stating jesus will come back as a savior.
a real christian and a real muslim would never try to force religion on people.
in quran muslims have a verse for this:
[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Omniscient.
what has happened is that sectarians, people of sects, guided by texts outside the ones permitted, did what they did with their crusades and their conquests. persecuted apostates and murdered many who did not believed what they believed.
you can be in a religion and still know that religion is one of the biggest tools for gaining power in the universe.
there are 4 pages of this thread that i would like to read but i cant now.
God willing i'll be back to discuss certain issues which might need a little help to understand.
if you planning on studying islam through muslims, forget it, because youll get 100s of different views on what islam is.
the core of the belief is God, the one mighty leader of the group, creator of this system.
He revealed the quran, and nothing more, so, either a muslim or not, using the quran should do it.
any questions?