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Daran
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17 Sep 2008, 10:23 am

ClosetAspy wrote:

I find Buddha's Four Noble Truths make sense, especially the idea that suffering is caused by desire/wanting/clinging. Sometimes when I get overwhelmed I have to tell myself to detach and let go of the situation; that there is something that I am getting too attached to.

However, I am afraid that I might be misinterpreting Buddhism, since I really don't know much about it and I don't know any practicing Buddhists. It seems in some ways a negative religion--isn't there more to life than avoiding suffering? And when is detachment healthy and when is it not? (I tend to extremes).

I agree that this is a weak point in buddhism that is has the negative state of suffering as its starting point.
In this sense it is comparable to christianity which takes the negative state of sinfulness as the starting point.

Sand
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17 Sep 2008, 11:37 am

My wife is undergoing terrible pain which has been continuing for months due to irritation of her trigeminal nerve and which cannot be alleviated by pain medicines and to imply that her frightful suffering is somehow due to her personal attitude is, frankly, disgusting.

Daran
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17 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm

Sand wrote:

Who is implying such a thing? It may have nothing to do with her present personal attitude.
The concept of karma implies that reactions to past actions can be expressed at a very much later time when your personality may be very remote from what is was in the life when you performed the original action.

So there is no room for blaming a suffering person for his/her past actions when that person is suffering.
But even when the cause of suffering is clearly visible to the spectator, blaming should not come into the picture. Blaming and wanting to take revenge are primitive attitudes, because we are all tied up in our karma and we should help others to rectify their mistakes.

When people suffer only the wish for the alleviation of that suffering should be our primary wish.

Last edited by Daran on 17 Sep 2008, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chever
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17 Sep 2008, 12:51 pm

Daran wrote:

Sand wrote:

That's quite an extraordinary claim, with wide implications. Do you have extraordinary evidence for it?

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Daran
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17 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm

chever wrote:

That's quite an extraordinary claim, with wide implications. Do you have extraordinary evidence for it?

There is nothing extraordinary about it. In fact all developed spiritual philosophies accept the laws of karma.

Last edited by Daran on 17 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

monty
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17 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm

Sand wrote:

In Huxley's Buddhist novel "Island" he said something like 1/5 of pain in life is unavoidable, while the other 4/5ths we inflict on ourselves or others unnecessarily through greed, attachment, fear, etc. Only the most doctrinaire Buddhist a55hole would blame your wife for the pain she has.

Trigeminal neuralgia? Cluster headaches? SUNCT? I've had to deal with one of those ... pure hell.

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17 Sep 2008, 1:03 pm

Daran wrote:

chever wrote:

That's quite an extraordinary claim, with wide implications. Do you have extraordinary evidence for it?

There is nothing extraordinary about it. In fact all developed spiritual philosophies accept the laws of karma.

So?

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slowmutant
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17 Sep 2008, 1:26 pm

chever wrote:

Daran wrote:

chever wrote:

That's quite an extraordinary claim, with wide implications. Do you have extraordinary evidence for it?

There is nothing extraordinary about it. In fact all developed spiritual philosophies accept the laws of karma.

So?

Sew buttons.

chever
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17 Sep 2008, 1:28 pm

Wait ...

No.

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slowmutant
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17 Sep 2008, 1:35 pm

Up your nose with a rubber hose, then. Sand in your face! Mud in your eye!

chever
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17 Sep 2008, 1:42 pm

Ummm

No

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Sand
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17 Sep 2008, 2:16 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Up your nose with a rubber hose, then. Sand in your face! Mud in your eye!

"Mud in your eye" is a toast. The rest of it sounds as if you've already had too much to drink.

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17 Sep 2008, 2:17 pm

chever wrote:

Daran wrote:

Sand wrote:

That's quite an extraordinary claim, with wide implications. Do you have extraordinary evidence for it?

I don't know if this is what you mean with the horrific part of reincarnation, but I would, I actually find this karma thing disturbing as Sand said, I admit I know nothing about Buddhism but I remember someone here made a warning about how much one would like it or dislike it after getting to know it, anyway, I don't even accept karma as something magical or a spiritual law, as that is subjected to different interpretations and opinions. And if Buddhism is a godless religion, who made that law?

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chever
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17 Sep 2008, 2:42 pm

I feel that karma implies reincarnation. For instance, if someone dies at the age of one having nothing dirty on his slate besides spitting up food and sh*****g his pants, what would explain this misfortune short of some kind of bad behavior 'overdraft' from a previous life? I don't believe in either, btw.

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monty
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17 Sep 2008, 2:50 pm

greenblue wrote:

"In general, followers of Buddhism and many Hindus consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma." (wikipedia)

Karma simply means "action" and it implies cause and effect. It is only the cartoon version that says that everyone gets exactly what they deserve or created for themselves. While some who talk about karma are applying this as a religious doctrine tied to reincarnation, others are using in a frame free of any mysticism. Does anyone challenge the idea that history (wars, conquests, famines, plagues, etc) are subject to interpretation from a lens of cause and effect? Why should we not apply cause and effect to the ethics of our personal action?

A secular student of karma might choose to ignore an insult because they know that the person who was insulting didn't know what TF they were talking about and it costs little to ignore it, while making a stink about the insult would be an action that has larger negative consequences.

chever
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17 Sep 2008, 2:54 pm

Wait

That's just utility

And I definitely translated a short version of the legend of Sithon and Manola that appears to take stock in what you called the 'cartoon' version of karma; Sithon is aware that he suffers loss because he was a dick in a past life or something. So...what the hell?

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