To gay marriage backers:

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Progress.

No one is afraid of progressing. It has to do with values. There is no need in having homosexual marriages. The argument that heterosexuals don't value their marriage is not even worth mentioning (as I've heard before).

This was said of a number of things, and the sky didn't come falling down.

Most assuredly. That's the idea.

It would be rude for you to disclose it when his personal relationships are no business of yours, busybody.

That's quite a bit of a lie. In fact, we've strayed far from your original position, and now we have begun a lively discussion on whether it is ethical for transsexuals to keep their original gender secret from their marital partners. You never even made an effort to defend you original statements.

Besides, the changelessness of your position is a perfect measurement of the extent of your ignorance.

That's the problem. People like you can't seem to prevent yourselves from being abusive and insensitive toward other people. Frankly, I think that some time behind bars would do you a world of good.

I am sure that there are Americans who don't like black people. Should we accomodate them?

1) The person who would take up such a task should have his medical license remove, even for thinking about it.

2) If a man goes under surgery to appear as a female and fools his partner into believe that he IS a female, do you find this acceptable?

3) It is also the business of the partner to be made aware of such a thing.

4) Nah, I'm sure you believe everything Fred posts. It is not ignorant of me if I do not like or accept a person's lifestyle. Such an idea is in itself ignorant.

5) I've given some examples as to why I cannot just turn a blind eye. Another is the fact that I don't see it being acceptable to flaunt in society. Men who dress/want to be women. That is truly ridiculous. Enjoy it behind your doors, do not involve society, and do not expect everyone in society to appreciate your bravado.

6) I made a point about it before. In either way, the black man will not be able to change his color, thus he is unable to do anything about being black. The transgendered or transsexual is in full control of his actions, thus is liable to receive criticism.

Why?


No, I don't find if acceptable. Your point on this is.....


From who and why?

being a homosexual doesn't mean you have low values.

I think you have homosexual tendencies and are affraid to face up to them. I really don't get what the problem is.

It's not like it is going to start turning everybody gay, well unless you are a bit that way included oscuria.

If you want to marry a big black man that is your business, I don't have a problem with that.

Last edited by MR_BOGAN on 03 May 2008, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think I'll contribute some of my opinions to this thread

On the same-sex marriage issue, I don't see why not. Canada and some parts of Europe allow it, and they're doing just fine. Also, I don't see marriage as a religious institution, since there's no law against two atheists getting married, and no one is required to have a religion-oriented marriage. As for the "sanctity of marriage" thing, I think marriage is screwed up enough as it is. People marrying in Las Vegas, couples getting a divorce within a year or two, and most celebrity marriages don't exactly sound "sanctified" to me.

Transgendered/sexual or transvestites shouldn't be an issue either. If it makes you uncomfortable, then don't associate with them. People have a right to express themselves. If you don't like it, then all I can say is deal with it. Just because I don't like how you dress doesn't mean I can ban you from wearing certain outfits.

i think gay people should marry if they want to.

and my opinion on transgender people... Whats the big deal? i man wants to be a woman, (or a woman wants to be a man) there is NOTHING wrong with that.

why do people hate so much?

The first sentence above is false - I have heard open, trustworthy people admit that even though a new situation would probably be better, they are afraid to bring it about, because they are comfortable where they are. I thought this was a very common experience.

Do you mean to say with the second 2 sentences that we should only value what is needed? I agree that in some minimal sense of 'need' homosexual marriage isn't needed - after all, no marriages are really *needed* - but I can't make sense of how this relates to the value of homosexual marriage.

Nope. If sex changes could be taken to the molecular level, then a person having undergone such a procedure really would become a member of the opposite sex, with all the bells and whistles.

This depends upon whether or not you hold lovers responsible for telling one another every single embarrassing detail about their pasts. Besides, sociological factors come into play here: it will remain necessary for some transsexuals to maintain their anonymity until this society has become enlightened enough to accept the idea of someone who wishes to pursue a sex change. This is a problem of your own creation, by the way. If not for such as you, transsexuals would not find it necessary to maintain their anonymity.

You haven't given crap. You just changed the subject.

You also complained when they were maintaining their anonymity. You can't have it both ways, sir. The simple fact is that you just don't like transsexuals. Too bad. They're still going to be there, and you still have to coexist with them. The world can't adjust itself to suit your preference. Get used to it.

When was the last time you had a look at Michael Jackson?

Okay! Bad example.

Anyway, this is really what is at the heart of the issue: it's the reasons that transsexuals have for choosing to change their gender. You call yourself "skeptical," but this seems to be a lie. I can no more be sure that they are lying than that they are telling the truth, though I find their condition curious. I would certainly be interested in knowing what motivates some people to undergo surgery and hormone replacement to have their sexes changed. You, on the other hand, seem to be very strongly attached to your belief that they are trying to mislead you. You are no skeptic, Osturia. In fact, you seem quite devoted to your paranoia.

Transvestites are one thing. I can see someone dressing up as a member of the opposite sex just for thrills. It is far more strange, however, for someone to go as far as surgery and hormone replacement. Why would someone with no history of conduct disorder and no history of thrill-seeking or drug-seeking behavior want to do this? This is not a certainty, but, for some reason, it does seem to occur. They seem to be so rare that they could rightly be considered proper outlyers...statistical anomalies. Whatever developmental oopsie causes this condition, I do not consider it grounds on which to consider a person any less a decent member of society.

Besides, it's not like this is something you'd have to deal with in your everyday life. Your chances of even meeting a transsexual are probably lower than your odds of being struck by lightening unless you go to some kind of convention. Post-ops constitute only a handful of the entire population, and most of them are pretty discreet. If you were to encounter such a person, you would probably never know it. Perhaps that's what makes you uneasy.

Oh, well. We're not going to instate a law requiring people to introduce themselves to you with a fact sheet describing their every ideosyncrasy. If you can't live with people, you should have stayed at home, you annoying, paranoid freak.

This seems to be the case, which is why I'm perfectly satisfied with a more gradual introduction of the idea. It means less social upset, here and abroad, and full marital rights are all but inevitable in the long-term. It is quite simply inevitable. The good guys are winning. Hooray. No need to let impatience turn the issue more divisive than when it first came to light.

That is cute. I enjoy the argument that if I am against something then I must enjoy it--or am afraid of indulging in it. There is nothing better than that.

Why would I marry a black man? Why would I marry a black man that dresses like a woman? I wouldn't touch a black woman that looks like a man. I've dating black women that look like their proper sex before, however.

The problem is homosexual marriage. I don't see it being of any value to society. Simple. One of us is wrong. I don't feel I am.

I've already made a point, either here or in another thread, that marriage is meant to raise a family. It is also meant to be between a man and a woman (obviously many of you will disagree). Do I like the fact that many heterosexuals prefer to marry and not respect the marriage's boundaries? Of course not. Do I like Las Vegas weddings, as some other member mentioned, No. I find these bring down the value of a marriage and only distorts it. But because it is already a distorted message, why should then it be allowed to be distorted even further by allowing homosexuals to marry?

I see no point.

Be together, stay happy. And if the idea of marriage just burns you on the inside, then just go to another country.










Progressing in what sense? Progressing as in becoming more liberal, of course not. Progressing as in developing and improving, why not?

Here's a quick search I did: Progress - To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily. Gay marriage in my opinion is not progress. Then again, my idea of progression may come across as regression for you










1) That is stupid. Anyone who supports such a proposal should be evaluated.

2) If I cheated on my wife, should I keep it from her? If my wife becomes pregnant with another man's child, should she keep that information from me? How is this situation any different than when a partner does not reveal his or her sex?

3) Take a closer look into the things that I am posting.

4) You're right, I don't like transsexuals. I've made that point very clear. I've explained why. But let it be known, before you or any other ignorant of the word, I do not hate transsexuals.

Now, if the world cannot adjust to suit my preference, then it is obnoxious for the "third gender" to believe, or demand, it will suit theirs.

5) I don't believe they are trying to mislead me. Frankly, I've not met many or know of many personally (I've met some transgendered, however). I just don't feel they are right in their thinking (both). Yes, I am against the fact that some will not disclose their gender. Because they are eunuchs does not mean they are women. If you feel like a woman, by all means embrace that feeling, but you are still not a woman at the end of the day. To demand to be accepted as such is utterly ridiculous and stupid. Why should I appease them if I in my mind do not see it as right? Because you feel it's better for society or for their emotions? I'm not as sympathetic as you--and we've established that.

About transvestites, I am sure they're not gay--or at least not all of them. I happen to like Eddie Izzard in all his drag-ness.

I'm really seeing no point in carrying our conversation, between my arguments and your insults; It is getting nowhere.

Well, it's eventually going to become a reality. Frankly, I don't think that you would react negatively to it at all. If a man were to have his sex completely changed at the molecular level, conceive a child, give birth to it, rear it, and insured that it received a decent education, I think, "what would Oscuria say or do if he were to encounter this person, knowing that his mother was once a man?" Not meaning to be presumptuous, I think that you would treat this person with the same respect that you would treat any other human being.

Really, I'm very sorry that I've spoken to you here like you're some jerk. I don't really think that you would actively bait a person whom you know to be a transsexual. Regardless of your opinions, I do not think that you would intentionally set out to hurt such a person unless you had been put into a position that put some kind of stress on your patience. You haven't given me any impression that you're actually like that. You don't strike me as a vicious human being. You just...don't.

This is a completely seperate issue from how you should behave toward transsexuals, and I am not going to argue with you further on it. This is an ethical dilemma that a transsexual is likely to face in a society that does not practice tolerance toward transsexuals. Frankly, I do not feel that I have a right to make that decision for a person who is in that position. I do not feel that a flat answer would suffice for all given situations.

Then why did you suggest imprisoning them? That was a pretty horrible and messed-up thing to say. You're entitled to your beliefs, but I have to draw the line somewhere. When you start talking about depriving people of their freedom over your beliefs, you're clearly conveying a highly distorted and egocentric view of what your beliefs should mean in the context of society. This is not going to get you very far. Such egocentric outlooks are divisive and harmful to society, and they should not be tolerated.

Dude, have you been listening to those uber-egalitarian oddballs who think that there should be some third and fourth gender and that we should add special words to our vocabularies to keep these "intersexed" folk from becoming upset? Look, you have been duped and hornswaggled. The intellectuals who came up with this screwball idea are trying to argue that gender is a social construct based upon the intentional construction of "intermediate" sexes, just to prove that it can be done. It is a crock of batpoop, and they know it.

However, the only real difference between men and women is that men's DNA codes for a specific enzyme that promotes the conversion of estrogen into testosterone. They are exposed to this from birth, though, and it has far-reaching effects upon their development. True transsexuals are too rare to be statistically significant, and they do not serve as evidence that gender is a meaningless concept. The only proper way to view them, due to their rarity, is as statistical outlyers that a curious scientist might have an interest in studying.

As for how they should be treated in society, I think that society has a vested interest in just leaving them be. They're a very tiny minority, and most of them aren't bothering anybody. They go pretty far out of their way to keep the issue quiet. In fact, you're the only reason these guys have any visibility at all. Frankly, I didn't need to spend as much time as I have defending the right of a few oddballs to live out their lives in peace. I wouldn't have even thought of them if you hadn't brought the issue up. YOU are the reason we're having this discussion. The transsexuals are just a few oddballs who would probably prefer that both you and me minded our own business.

Why should they disclose themselves to you, though, if you're just going to reject them? Seriously, if you're just going to unzip and take a piss on what they believe, then they're not going to reveal themselves to you. Your intolerance is their reason for staying in the closet. That's how gays used to be treated, though, man. People used to say, "No, I don't hate gays. I only hate gays who either tell me that they are gay or fail to tell me that they are gay." It doesn't make sense, does it?

Because they are going to bully you into it, and I am going to help them.

Yes.

Then it'll just have to be forced upon you. Oh, well. We'll shove it down your throat, eventually. I'll give it three more years, and you'll be whistling our tune through every orifice in your body. Wanna take wagers?

By points:

No, I won't go around beating or assaulting transsexuals or the transgendered. I've no reason to and my beliefs advocates against it. I won't go around disrespecting people in a "I'm better than you" manner. I just can't see why I should be accepting of something that contradicts my reality. I've no problem with people being gay, dressing in a certain manner, or what have you. I do find it a lifestyle that should not be lead, just as I find a great majority of people in America straying from the path.

About the "change at the molecular level." I will again repeat that I would still consider them a male--although with distinctions. It just goes against my belief in that we are born to be who we are. If it was supposed to be different, then we would have been born different. Now, as long as the person does not attempt to mislead, then I've no problem with it because then he would live his lifestyle with those who are accepting.



The part of them going to jail, well, that was a bit of a joke. But I will say that people today have too many liberties. It's fine to an extent. As soon as I get my degree and marry, I'll build up a living in a more conservative country.

i have absolutely no problem with gay marriage. but in the FIGHT for gay marriage, i've had one issue.

now inarguably married gay couples should have the same legal rights and benefits that straight married couples do. gay couples pay taxes like everyone else, they aren't breaking any laws, they deserve the same rights as anyone else, to deny it would just be out of your own prejudices. nothing else.

BUT where i think the fight for gay marriage has suffered is bringing in religion. i 100% don't agree with the anti-gay stance most religions have taken, but you have to realize marriage is as much a religious institution as it is a legal one. so to people who just see the religious side of it are feeling very threatened right now. i think if gay marriage supporters went for the legal issue moreso than the religious (getting married in a courthouse instead of a church if you will) then this matter will be settled much quicker. being recognized in the eyes of God is a huge hurdle to get over (moreso God's believers than God himself). being recognized in the eyes of the state isn't so much.

don't get me wrong. i hope the major religions of the world will one day accept gays like everyone else. but that's a fight that won't be won in our lifetime.

I don't think it matters what tirade you chose to support; gay marriage will happen eventually in our lifetime. It's legal in Canada, England, and Massachusetts. For those that don't like it, when you see gay PDA, I for one will laugh when I see a tear in your eye.

Where's god now, biatch!