a non-inflamitory question for any christians-

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oscuria
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28 May 2008, 8:11 pm

:lol: hmm

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Kilroy
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28 May 2008, 8:21 pm

oscuria wrote:

:lol: hmm

well what do you think then

share your views instead of mocking others :roll:

oscuria
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28 May 2008, 8:40 pm

Kilroy wrote:

well what do you think then

share your views instead of mocking others :roll:

Who is mocking who?

Either way, since you asked I'll respond to your post:

You cannot apply gender to the Creator. He has no image, we cannot conceive any image to apply to to Him. Therefore when we in English use HE is is mainly because we have taken Him as a Father to the people or as a Master. Many use She and it is acceptable however not the norm and unless explained is mostly a Pagan thing. Like Shakti is given the attribute of female while Shiv is male. Mainly it is due to language as other languages apply gender to things. In English we do the same, but it isn't always agreed upon (like attributing female/male names to our vehicles and other objects).

The applying of gender/sex is grammatical and has nothing to do with actual gender. This is something useful and interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God

What exactly are you referring to in the latter part? What was rewritten? What woman who "had a book"? For all I know, Jesus didn't have any wives and the prostitute never had a name.

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Jainaday
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28 May 2008, 8:47 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Jainaday wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Jainaday wrote:

Have you ever had any trouble accepting the inferior status of women that most common understandings of the bible imply?

Flawed premise. You've placed an answer within the question itself, negating its purpose.

And thank you for being non-inflamatory. Few grace us with that.

I'm tempted--in the most playful of ways-- to say, "learn to effing read, Ragtime.

(also, you're welcome.)

I didn't make a conclusive statement about the bible's actual teachings--I asked how people deal with certain common interpretations that are, indeed, out there and fairly frequent.

The phrase "the inferior status of women that most common understandings of the bible imply" is leading the witness, so to speak.
The most common understandings of the Bible (capital "B", by the way -- I'm tempted to say "Learn to read, jainaday") do not include women having an "inferior" status, as you claim.

We can continue with the discussion once you correct your premise.

To some of us, the bible is literature, not scripture.

My premise is what I intended it to me. I'm not asking about the content of the bible, only about how people deal with certain interpretations of it which I have commonly encountered. If you have a less pre-emptive way to ask that, I'm curious to know what it is.

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Kilroy
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28 May 2008, 8:48 pm

Many-in the new testiment there was a woman-I think she was a prostitute or an adulterer
the townsfolk were gonna stone her and Jesus said his little "he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing
mary Magdoline I think was her name
it was said-she had a book in the original bible
but it was removed
it is known that about a third of the bible was removed in the middle ages
and it was changed-when translated all those times
the middle ages ruined christianity

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28 May 2008, 8:55 pm

starchild wrote:

Religion doesn't seem to satisfy the people, or help the world much anyway does it?
Where I live, people don't go to church at all. So that tells me that theres's something not right with Christianity, but that's just me. People doesn't seem to get anything out of it.

While various churches have certainly done a lot of harm across history, you do seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions.. . you ignore the cultural closeness that worship communities have and the positives that can bring--such as the catholic church being active, powerful positive influence for social change in Africa and South America--and at the same time essentially stating that because people where you live don't engage in a practice, it has no value.

I am not persuaded by your argument.

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Jainaday
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28 May 2008, 8:58 pm

Orwell wrote:

Jainaday wrote:

So-- am I correct in my summary that all who have posted have come to terms with this by assuming that it's a matter of mistranslation or differing times, rather than what the bible was actually intended to say?

May I have the requested clarification please?

Differing times and differing interpretations. Translations haven't made any significant impact, as those have been very reliable over the centuries. Besides, the clergy often learns to read biblical texts in the original, so translation CAN'T be an issue for them. I would say that in the past people have twisted the Bible to put women in an inferior position.

Thank you. I really appreciate your straightforward input.

How have you come to the conclusion that biblical translation has been reliable?

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oscuria
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28 May 2008, 9:00 pm

Kilroy wrote:

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene is an apocryphal and is actually a part of the Gnostic Gospels. It was never a part of the original bible.

And about her being the prostitute: The Prostitute in John 7-8 is unnamed. The belief comes from a sermon by Pope Gregory I where he "identified" Mary Magdalene to be many women, including another Mary, in the bible.

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Kilroy
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28 May 2008, 9:01 pm

well I'd say for a non christian I have some okay knowledge of christianity

oscuria
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28 May 2008, 9:03 pm

Jainaday wrote:

If the bible is only literature then what are you worrying about?

Translations in my opinion are NOT reliable. They are interpretations. Unless a translation has excerpts, quotes, original verse, definitions, and separate information of the mythologies, it is not trustworthy. It must have a thorough explanation of the text.

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slowmutant
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28 May 2008, 9:19 pm

Really? I always thought it would have been closer to noon.

Orwell
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28 May 2008, 10:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Orwell wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

What's a YEC?

Young-Earth Creationist. Someone who believe the Earth came is 6000 years old and that evolution is an atheistic conspiracy to destroy Christianity. One interesting estimate places the date of creation at October 23 4004 BC at 9:00 AM.

But I'm not a YEC.

Maybe not the variety that believes in a date of creation at 23-10-4004BC, but unless you were just playing devil's advocate for about two solid weeks of nonstop debate, you are a YEC. Or are you one of those "old-Earth creationists?" Either way, my initial comment on the hypocrisy of your post stands.

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CottlestonPie
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28 May 2008, 10:55 pm

Which book of did Jesus write? When was the first New Testament book written? I have never heard of Jesus writing anything. The oldest New Testament books were written by Paul. The oldest gospel is Mark, and I think it was written a few decades after the death of Jesus. Scripture is confusing because there are so many authors. They have differing and sometimes conflicting views. I can't be sure anything that is in the Holy Bible was divinely inspired. It's all opinion. I take what I need and leave the rest. If I went by what I learned in church, I would be insane. I know, because I was insane until I started studying the Bible on my own. The only parts of the Bible that are worthwhile are the parts that tell you how to live a spiritual life. All the prophecies and descriptions of an afterlife and rules for conduct are meaningless unless they help you live a better life. People get too hung up on the Bible and use in all sorts of ungodly ways. You can interpret the Bible to support anything you want to do. Example- Slavery in the U.S., Anti-miscegenation laws, and segregation. These were all supported by Christians who used the Bible to justify their beliefs. A more modern example is the Westboro Baptist Church. They go to the funerals of soldiers waving flags like "Thank God for IED's" and "God Hates Fags" and "Your Son is in Hell." It's biblical; it doesn't mean that's it's right. For this reason, I no longer consider myself a Christian. Either you accept the whole religion or you don't accept any of it. Either you try to live the Christian life or don't call yourself a Christian. That's my opinion.

oscuria
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28 May 2008, 11:10 pm

CottlestonPie wrote:

How many until the Gurus of Sikhism wrote Scripture? Not even Muhammad wrote scripture. These are reciters and as Prophets they recite. It is not their duty to write, but the duty of the followers to memorize.

What is meant by divinely inspired? The Laws are useful if only to live a lawful life. The reason why we have had many men who have deviated is because they don't pay attention to the laws instead they follow their emotions (indeed many say the Law is unimportant today). There is nothing in the bible that can enforce any of the slavery laws that were in place in America, nor the Anti-miscegenation laws (How many of the Prophets did not marry outside their tribe?).

Westboro Baptist church is as much a church as the Church of Satan.

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Orwell
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29 May 2008, 12:15 am

Jainaday wrote:

How have you come to the conclusion that biblical translation has been reliable?

Because we still have ancient manuscripts against which modern Bibles can be readily compared, and they match up quite well. The textual evidence for accurate preservation and transmission of the Bible is overwhelming.

Many people like to claim that the Bible has been "rewritten," but they don't typically like to provide any evidence for these claims.

Also, from one English translation to another, although they were translated by different people, they still tend to come out pretty close together, indicating that the overall meaning is probably not significantly corrupted in translation.

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29 May 2008, 9:14 am

This discussion is a perfect example of how it is possible to prove any point by looking at a thing from a different angle. I'm surprised the Christians on WP haven't been accused of being ritualitsic cannibals or drinkers of human blood.

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