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Christian Misanthropy

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chever
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15 Oct 2008, 5:04 pm

^^^

LOL


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Orwell
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15 Oct 2008, 5:05 pm

Haliphron wrote:
What Calvinists dislike about humans are their "carnal desires"-well specifically sexuality and pleasure. Otherwise they still think of humans as having the capacity for good if they work hard to pretend like they're disembodies souls..... :roll:
I also view Calvinist protestantism, and its modern day successor-Christian Fundamentalism-as an attempt to return christianity to its patriarchal roots. The virgin mary plays NO role in fundamentalist protestantism and the worship of Mary and Saints is considered to be idolatry in the eyes of most fundies.

Please don't speak for a faith to which you do not belong. You are confusing Calvinism with Puritanism. They are not the same thing.


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15 Oct 2008, 10:48 pm

Orwell wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
What Calvinists dislike about humans are their "carnal desires"-well specifically sexuality and pleasure. Otherwise they still think of humans as having the capacity for good if they work hard to pretend like they're disembodies souls..... :roll:
I also view Calvinist protestantism, and its modern day successor-Christian Fundamentalism-as an attempt to return christianity to its patriarchal roots. The virgin mary plays NO role in fundamentalist protestantism and the worship of Mary and Saints is considered to be idolatry in the eyes of most fundies.

Please don't speak for a faith to which you do not belong. You are confusing Calvinism with Puritanism. They are not the same thing.

Puritans were a variant of Calvinists, and a variant that are often still read today by modern conservative Calvinists. I do think I heard once that Puritans promoted a healthy marital sex life, but that could be entirely wrong. That being said, it is very much overdone, especially given that free will baptists can be pretty fundamentalist.



Haliphron
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15 Oct 2008, 11:15 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
What Calvinists dislike about humans are their "carnal desires"-well specifically sexuality and pleasure. Otherwise they still think of humans as having the capacity for good if they work hard to pretend like they're disembodies souls..... :roll:
I also view Calvinist protestantism, and its modern day successor-Christian Fundamentalism-as an attempt to return christianity to its patriarchal roots. The virgin mary plays NO role in fundamentalist protestantism and the worship of Mary and Saints is considered to be idolatry in the eyes of most fundies.

Please don't speak for a faith to which you do not belong. You are confusing Calvinism with Puritanism. They are not the same thing.

Puritans were a variant of Calvinists, and a variant that are often still read today by modern conservative Calvinists. I do think I heard once that Puritans promoted a healthy marital sex life, but that could be entirely wrong. That being said, it is very much overdone, especially given that free will baptists can be pretty fundamentalist.


And Calvinism is the forefather of modern fundamentalism(Baptists included). I wonder about the Mormons though and their view on humanity..........



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16 Oct 2008, 12:12 am

Haliphron wrote:
And Calvinism is the forefather of modern fundamentalism(Baptists included). I wonder about the Mormons though and their view on humanity..........

Well, the issue then is what we are taking this to mean. I said "free will baptists" and they fall under a different theological tradition that, while Protestant, is a rejection of Calvinism. I mean, if we take our terms loose enough, then most of Protestantism other than perhaps Lutheranism would have Calvinism as a forefather to some extent given how the Reformation ended up working, as Calvin was one of the most theologically influential reformers.



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16 Oct 2008, 12:37 am

Haliphron wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
You are confusing Calvinism with Puritanism. They are not the same thing.

Puritans were a variant of Calvinists, and a variant that are often still read today by modern conservative Calvinists. I do think I heard once that Puritans promoted a healthy marital sex life, but that could be entirely wrong. That being said, it is very much overdone, especially given that free will baptists can be pretty fundamentalist.


And Calvinism is the forefather of modern fundamentalism(Baptists included). I wonder about the Mormons though and their view on humanity..........

AG and Haliphron, you are both implicitly committing the converse area. The Puritans could be considered a subset of Calvinism (though I could as easily argue that they weren't, based on the conflicts between them and more mainstream Calvinists as well as some other differences) but it does not follow that Calvinists in general accept Puritan ideas. I am Calvinist but not Puritan. Heck, I'm for same-sex marriage, legalizing marijuana, and all kinds of other social libertarian positions. That's hardly Puritanical, and yet I am very solidly Calvinist.

Also, Baptists are probably the only major branch of Christianity that I just plain dislike in a blanket fashion. I may disagree theologically with Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists, but I can get along with them just fine. Baptists tend to get on my nerves though.


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Awesomelyglorious
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16 Oct 2008, 1:18 am

I doubt it would be "easily" given that the major branch of puritanism usually identified is Calvinistic puritanism. Not only that, but Johnathan Edwards is often considered a predecessor by modern Calvinists, and a puritan of that age. The heart of puritanism is their religious beliefs, not their political beliefs, nor could it be said that Calvin himself was a social libertarian either.

Baptists are one of the more extreme branches, but they also have a pretty strong Arminian branch of Baptist, and calling Arminians to be Calvinists seems somewhat of a stretch given the theological differences we have come to see. I mean, we can say that Arminianism and Calvinism are historically related, but at that point, we almost have to come to the conclusion that most Protestantism has descended from Calvinism.



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16 Oct 2008, 2:00 am

OK, fair points, but I still think it is still a bit of a stretch to generalize from Puritans to all Calvinists.


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16 Oct 2008, 3:17 am

Orwell wrote:
OK, fair points, but I still think it is still a bit of a stretch to generalize from Puritans to all Calvinists.

I agree, however, conservative Christian Calvinists are pretty much puritan loving. And more liberal Christians usually do not get as hung up on salvation doctrine I don't think.



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16 Oct 2008, 9:51 am

Liberal Christians tend not to get hung up on very much at all.


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16 Oct 2008, 4:16 pm

Of the Christian community as a whole, liberal Christians are generally the Fonzi's of the bunch.


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16 Oct 2008, 4:31 pm

Postperson wrote:
I tend to find 'happy clappy' christians a bit creepy.


I find you a bit creepy.



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16 Oct 2008, 4:32 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
Of the Christian community as a whole, liberal Christians are generally the Fonzi's of the bunch.


What do you mean by this, exactly?



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16 Oct 2008, 10:24 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Phagocyte wrote:
Of the Christian community as a whole, liberal Christians are generally the Fonzi's of the bunch.


What do you mean by this, exactly?


They're cool and easy to talk to like you and Orwell.


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17 Oct 2008, 12:43 am

Orwell wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
You are confusing Calvinism with Puritanism. They are not the same thing.

Puritans were a variant of Calvinists, and a variant that are often still read today by modern conservative Calvinists. I do think I heard once that Puritans promoted a healthy marital sex life, but that could be entirely wrong. That being said, it is very much overdone, especially given that free will baptists can be pretty fundamentalist.


And Calvinism is the forefather of modern fundamentalism(Baptists included). I wonder about the Mormons though and their view on humanity..........

AG and Haliphron, you are both implicitly committing the converse area. The Puritans could be considered a subset of Calvinism (though I could as easily argue that they weren't, based on the conflicts between them and more mainstream Calvinists as well as some other differences) but it does not follow that Calvinists in general accept Puritan ideas. I am Calvinist but not Puritan. Heck, I'm for same-sex marriage, legalizing marijuana, and all kinds of other social libertarian positions. That's hardly Puritanical, and yet I am very solidly Calvinist.

Also, Baptists are probably the only major branch of Christianity that I just plain dislike in a blanket fashion. I may disagree theologically with Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists, but I can get along with them just fine. Baptists tend to get on my nerves though.


You do realize there are a number of fundamentalist protestant sects in the US BESIDES baptists: like presbyterians, pentacostals, 7th day Adventists,and Born Again Christians.



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17 Oct 2008, 1:14 am

Haliphron wrote:
You do realize there are a number of fundamentalist protestant sects in the US BESIDES baptists: like presbyterians, pentacostals, 7th day Adventists,and Born Again Christians.

Baptists are the worst out of those. It is hard to argue otherwise. Not only that, but there are fundamentalist Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists, so it isn't as if Orwell is ignoring all fundamentalists, he is just pointing to Baptists, as they are especially bad.

Presbyterians believe in Christian liberty, which allows for them to drink and gamble, whereas Baptists are hard-core against any fun.

Pentacostals are mostly just weird.

7th day adventists? Well, they aren't that common anyway.

Born again Christians *aren't* a denomination, and to some extent is just a term to mean "extremist Christian", so using them as a point for analysis is rather pointless, especially since a person could probably be born again without holding to the same legalistic rigor as the Baptists.