The truth about 9/11

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Am I not allowed to ask people about their lives?
Ok, RobertN, report me. I couldn't give a tinker's toss.
I've disagreed with almost everything I've seen you post on WrongPlanet, but before this thread I'd never yet seen you match the nuttiness of Happeh.

Happeh, congratulations on completely missing the point. Look, RobertN claimed that the people that come up with "these theories" are top-level physicists.
I then challenged him to name some.
Since RobertN made the first claim, the onus is on him to prove it and to prove me wrong for my scepticism.

I also conceded that, even though I don't think you'd find any other physics professors endorsing your conspiracy theories, I think it would be highly possible to find many professors of physics with strong anti-American views. I then effectively posed the question: if you want to use any of these physicists to support your case, what makes you think the political views of a talented physicist are any more valid than the political views of anyone else?

Happeh, do you understand?

But it is fine with you if Mackloket says I am delusional?

Hypocrite.

It's fine by alot of people to say that you are delusional! Alot of people think it, but Matchlocket was the first to have the balls to say it.

Last edited by Sean on 30 Nov 2005, 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think Bec already asked everyone to quit the personal attacks. It is a good debate, and doesn't need to be intensified by people getting mad with others. Please, keep it civil.

True. However, it is obvious now that I am not the only person finding it harder and harder to keep quiet about not being able to have an intelligent discussion without the presence of some form of psychotic delusional ravings. Furthermore, such raving makes it impossible to have a productive discussion when the central theme of a thread becomes the end product of a demented mind because there is then nothing concrete and rational to discuss. Thus, we end up with personal attacks because we are dealing in two different realities, one that the world operates on and one that exists solely in a single member's head. When the single member starts accusing people of being stupid and/or ignorant, then the fur starts to fly.

Or insulting our neurodifferences.....

This is off topic, but to answer Klytus, Im gonna go forth, please bear with me as others may wonder too....

Not too bad. I mean Im clumsy and uncorrindated and quirky, but the guys just think im an eccentric genius. They dont know about AS, though a couple do know of my learning differences by simple observation. When we have a call, Im cool, calm and collected. My job isnt routine, but my training is. We train for this and that, and many many different possibilities for every call. I work hard at my training and I work hard at trying to fit in. But my quirks have advantges that I have learned to use. like My AS mind is a database of information that we need both inroute to the scene and at the call. I am called the "walking alamanic". Some of my social behaviors are the norm in a fire station environment anyhow, so many things go unnoticed. The eye contact thing gets noticed most. But people that know me know that Im honest (to a fault) and that I can be trusted to do the right thing. I know my weaknesses and my strengths. Like I shouldnt operate a K-12 saw on a slanted roof. So my focus isnt verticle ventilation. On the other hand, my mind catalouges HAZ-Mat info, Aircraft specs, water flow capacities, EMS procedures, and other triva that we need on calls. Plus I have a talent for maps and directions so I almost (almost) never get lost going to calls.

Anyhow, I love it. It was the first "obsession" I can remember having as a kid. I dont sport the AS because the dr we use is an idiot and would not sign off on me because of it I'm afraid. He has issues with things that arent in NFPA 1500. Also, I dont have the "offical" diagnosis. I have each thing (sensory issues, social interaction issues, dyspraxia, IQ, etc) diagnosed independantly. Anyhow I digress. Ive been a firefighter for almost a decade now. I have all the basic classes, and some advanced as well as NR EMT-B. I specilized in Aircraft, and arson investigation, Im IFSAC certified and an Instructor. Instructing is easier than interacting after class though.... lol. well I have rambled long enough. Thanks for the polite question.

In honest speech, Sean is saying

"True. But I could care less. I will go right ahead and imply a man is psychotically raving right in my response to you, the mod.



Be honest sean. You are still lying. You are upset because I pointed out to everyone that you have no arguments. You throw rocks at people, then run away.

You say "That is stupid" and then say nothing else. No argument, no discussion, no debate. Just your opinion from on high that the statement does not meet with your approval. Look at this post for instance. You go on about how people are delusional, but you offer no example of why. Just your opinion as GOD of WrongPlanet that the posts don't meet with your approval.

Then when someone grabs you before you can run away and says "Let's here YOUR position buddy", you start all this smack talk about how the person is this and that. And if the mods say stop personal insults, you rephrase your insults to speak to a mythical 3rd party, when everyone knows exactly what you are doing. Playing games to get around the mod's words.

Be honest. I know it is hard. You and Machloket are both on the same political roll. You want to get rid of my opinions and facts.

It appears your culture raised you to be deceitful. I know it works. We see deceit win all the time. WMD in Iraq. Frist corruption, DeLay corruption, Libby perjury scandal, Israeli art student spy scandal, Jonathan Pollard spy scandal, Abramoff bribery scandal, Conrad Black fraud scandal, Golan Cipel blackmail scandal, Neo Con takeover of the United States government, Sharon corruption scandal. All those lies worked out great didn't they?

Dang. After writing down all those instances of liars winning, I am wondering if maybe I should start lying. Being honest? I lose everyday. If I lie, I could be rich, take over the government of a country or bribe whomever I want with impugnity.

Sean, Klytus, Happeh, and Machloket, I would advise you to cut out the insults or I will tell the Mods.

Sean, you are not going to win the arguement by attacking the mental health of other members, so don't go there.

Klytus, you are not going to silence me by saying my conspiracy theories (and they are only theories) are delusional. I am saying there is a possibility of a conspiracy, but your mind is closed to all possibilities apart from the one that the Bush administration feeds into your head.

The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don't make any sense. They don't match the forensic explanations for the towers' collapse, they rely on inexplicably bizarre behavior by both the terrorists and the would-be American collaborators (or else invoke even more bizarre conspiracies like a secret Jewish cabal), and are generally nonsensical and impractical.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that people who dismiss the conspiracy theories are being fed a line by Bush. I think Bush is probably one of the most destructive people on the planet, and possibly the worst president the U.S. has ever had (I say "possibly" because I admit I'm not familiar with a lot of the middle ones). I don't trust a word he has to say, and I don't trust the media's interpretation of the facts, either.

But that doesn't mean I leap on board any theory that makes Bush out to be the bad guy. In my opinion, your desire to believe that he is evil incarnate, though somewhat justified by his actions, is leading you to blindly accept some things that don't make any sense, just because they confirm your views.

Jeremy

Let me demonstrate to sean how a discussion is supposed to work.

I said "Israel controls the USA. The Neo Cons set up a conspiracy to push the USA into attacking Iraq for the benefit of Israel. Some of these benefits include an Iraqi oil pipeline to Israel, as well as starting civil war in Iraq according to long term Israeli plans. The Israelis run death squads in Iraq, and they use the Kurds for terrorist actions into Syria and Turkey".

Now. Sean or Machloket have a problem with this statement. They are both pro Israeli. It is their job to deny or stop any negative words about Israel. So what do they do? They say.

"You are delusional".

What kind of an argument is that? It is not an argument. It is a personal attack meant to convince the reader that whatever the person says is not worth listening to. They don't attack what has been said because it is factual and can be backed up with readily available evidence.

In a debate, when you disagree, you are supposed to stick to the discussion. Since I am a good person, I will follow the rules of debate even though they called me delusional. Delusional means that something in that paragraph about Israel is wrong or mistaken. I deny that. I say it is all true. As part of debating rules, I post backup for my position.

I chose to post backup for my assertion that the Israelis are in Iraq using the Kurds for terrorist actions into Syria and Turkey. I post a link to a news story that plainly and clearly says

Israel Ex-commandos Training Kurds in North Iraq:

"Dozens of former Israeli commandos have been training Kurdish security forces in northern Iraq, supplying them with equipment worth millions of dollars, Yedioth Aharonot newspaper reported Thursday, December 1.

Over the past 18 months, these ex-commandos, who were sent to Iraq by several Israeli corporations, have been training special security units as part of a program organized by the Kurdish authorities, said Israel's top-selling daily.

Operating from a secret desert stronghold dubbed Code Z, the ex-Israeli soldiers, all with elite-unit experience, have been training the Kurds in weapons, self-defense and anti-terror techniques.

The newspaper showed photographs of men it said were Israelis, their faces concealed, training Kurds in the use of weapons at an unknown location and preparing vehicles at an airport.

The New Yorker veteran investigative reporter Seymour Hersh said Israeli intelligence and military operatives were quietly at work in northern Iraq, providing training for Kurdish commando units and running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria."


Sean and Machloket. I know your job is to stop the truth about Israel from being revealed. You will find that calling me names does not work. There is a world of evidence to support my claims. There is no evidence at all to support your denials.

I predict you both will be chewing your shorts in frustration. Because I back up my claims while both of you only know how to personal attack. You aren't able to do anything else.

errm...if Israel was so well organized and capable of running the U.S., do you honestly think they would have a problem running, taking over, or outright occupying all their Muslim neighbors and stop the fighting once and for all. It would be much easier, as they are much closer in looks, langues, and genetic background to them, and much closer. Their neighbors also have far less complicated governments and checks and balances. Their peoples are much poorer overall and more subject to bribery, since that is when all said and done, is in fact the primary motivation for the Terrorist leaders. Though the terror soldiers themselves may believe its for a worthy cause. This is evidenced, not just by the stock market moves after 9/11, but by the very begining of Terrorists in the Middle East when the Hashashin terrorized, NOT western nations, but Fellow Muslim-ruled ones, and for what, MONEY AND POWER.

The very idea, that Israel, which did not EVEN exist when the U.S. was founded in 1776, is preposterous. The reason i laugh at your ideas, is because they are so absurd and unfounded, they are funny. Many Jews after WWII, were broke when they moved to the Holy Land, many immigrated from COMMUNIST Soviet Union, would not have been much better off, as the Nation spent lots of money and resources fighting the war, and much of its land was devastated. I wonder, even if Israel, which was Created as a free nation AFTER WWII, had the motivation, could have accumulated enough wealth, with only about some 6 million some odd citizens, in less the 60 years to be able to take over another nation with many times its GNP. That could never happen between Corporations or companies, one that is much smaller and made far less money could not possibly buy out or take over one much larger. Its rather akin to believing that a local bank chain with maybe a few million or so, could buy out CITIbank, which say had earnings in excess of hundreds of millions or billions. You expect me to believe this longshot conspiracy theory based on what, WEBSITES, which are by nature subject to bias and unsubstantiated statements. And who made these sites, anyone or entity that has any trustworthiness whatsoever, its doubtful.

Please continue you rants and raves, as i know you will. Even if you accuse others of slamming your name or insulting, YOU DO IT TOO, and you do it more so. To say that Israel controls the U.S. is an insult to the 290 million citizens of both nations. And even if you say, that they offer no proof, neither do you. You also insult the man and office of the president, which i dont care about, but its an insult unfounded when you accuse them of conspiracy and with no support. Those websites, do not look official by any stretch of the imagination. So, trained and well educated the writers there maybe, but it boils down to this stuff being a matter of OPINION only.

But trust me, there have been worse Presidents. Warren G. Harding, is known by many historians to have the most corrupt cabinet in history, tho, whether he himself was is also a matter for debate.

Benjimen Harrison, won the election by corruption over Democrat Samuel Tilding of New York, despite having more popular votes as well, but the Electors votes were bought, it can be debated whether both parties tried that in recent elections, but it was not as obvious.


P.S. as to your latest arguement, SO WHAT???? Even if that were true, The Kurds have been independent before the fall of Saddam, they may have hired many mercenaries to train their troops, or even afterwards, SO WHAT?? its their choice, not yours. That proves nothing, except they want well trained troops. Your source, is what an ARAB paper, many of which do anything BUT tell the truth, or is it a New York Liberal run paper, many of which seem to have an agenda of political orientation. Thats not proof. And so what if they have spies there, many nations have spies in many other nations, and more so in trouble spots or areas of concern to their defence. Those spies maybe watching for terror groups for all you know. Again, your so called evidence, proves absolutely NOTHING.

Terrorist actions my arse. Israel is supporting the Kurdish military to enable them to spy on Iran's nuclear weapons making facilities. So. F***ing. What? It's called foreign policy. Most countries have one.

Since much of the Muslim Middle-East been trying to destroy Israel ever since she gained her independence, why shouldn't Israel work in the interests of her own security?

If Israel really had designs on world domination, they could start by annexing Gaza and the West Bank. They would be legally entitled to do so, since Israel captured the areas in a defensive war, and the areas have never legally belonged to anyone since they stopped being UN mandated territories.

The Kurds have been running a peaceful, democratic, de facto state in Iraq for years, despite the ongoing persecution they've suffered under Saddam Hussein.
It's bizarre that certain people in the West have spent more time championing the cause of Palestinians than the Kurds.
Maybe if the Kurds committed more international terrorism, people would pay as much attention to them as they do to the Palestinians.

Were you a fan of Saddam Hussein, Happeh?

I'm not trying to silence anyone. And I don't think it's a personal insult to tell someone I think their opinion on XYZ is nuts.

Ok, I've said it's pointless arguing with conspiracy theorists, but I will pose a few questions for people who still believe there might have been some sort of 9/11 conspiracy.
I guess I'm just curious to see the lengths to which people like Happeh will go.

If the collapse of the towers was due to bombs, why didn't the supposed conspirators just set a bomb off instead? Too simple huh?
Do you really think the Americans (or, for Happeh, the Israelis) would be able to find people (the hijackers) willing to commit suicide for the sake of some oil pipelines in the Middle East?

Or maybe, as RobertN suggests, the Americans and the Islamic extremists were working together. Why the hell would they do that, seeing as the event has led to them fighting against each other in Iraq? (Or, at least, the Americans are fighting; the Islamists are murdering civilians instead.)

If the hijackers were "planted" as part of the conspiracy, then why didn't they put any Iraqi nationals among them? Too obvious huh?

Do you people who support the bomb theory remember that a bomb was set off by Islamist terrorists under the WTC in 1993? (It failed to bring the building down.) Do you think this was a conspiracy too? What about the Islamist terrorist bombings of the American Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998? Do you think these were inside jobs too? And if so, do you think that if the people behind them were so desperate to "create an enemy" they'd drag the whole process out over a decade and more.

Islamic terrorism has been a reality for decades. If anyone wants to deny the reality of Islamic terrorism, they'd have to work their conspiracy theories back to the years before the first Gulf War; and the first Gulf War was a time when coalition forces perhaps had even more justification in invading Iraq than they did in 2003.

Did you know that Islamic terrorists tried to assassinate the Pope in Manila in 1994? Why didn't America / Israel just let them get away with it, or is the Vatican in on the conspiracy too?

Did you know that Islamic extremists besieged Mecca in 1979 in protest that the ruling Saud dynasty were not Islamic enough? Do you want to blame the Americans for that episode too?

Now, why should there be so much terrorism committed in the name of Islam? Well, there are passages in the Koran and Hadith that explicitly advocate jihad, murder and terrorism. Shall we put two and two together here, or do you think the Koran and Hadith are also CIA/Mossad conspiracies?

Last edited by Klytus on 01 Dec 2005, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SO what if they are training the Kurds? Arent the Kurds pro-demacracy? Didnt Saddam Hussain use nerve gas on the Kurds in an attempt to eleminate the lot of them? The Isralies have jam-up commandos, and Im sure that the training the Kurds are supposedly getting is some of the best too. Heck, I'll donate money to THAT cause!
Happeh, why dont you like the Kurdish people? Or the Isralies for that matter? Is there ANYONE, besides yourself, that you DO like? I dont think I ever thought to ask that of you. Just wondering so we can attempt to understand where you are comming from.