Is Capitalism Dead?

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skafather84
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13 Dec 2008, 2:03 pm

slowmutant wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Puppet wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Capitalism is a way of life. It is a religion.

And the idol/mascot/godhead of said religion is ...

drama queen. :roll:

Not really.

i think it's quite an exaggeration. the reason why it's given the praise it is here with certain people is because we know it (mostly) works. the less interference, the better it will work. it's nothing to do with worship so much as appreciating a naturally efficient system of commerce.

i don't see how it's a religion...calling something a religion is so cheaply used here.

I may be trippin' on my "sleeping pills", but I think the Bible was wise to assume that people might worship not the cow, but the gold.

I'm assuming that's slowmutant's interpretation?

Correct. The golden calf is a symbol of materialism, which of course fuels capitalism like gasoline fuels a pickup truck.

you're adding metaphor where there wasn't any before. the story was a literal story and the intent was the first commandment. there is no commandment that states "thou shalt not be greedy." such an idea as how power has been conglomerated today didn't exist then.

You forget that greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

the 7 sins were listed in the 6th century by dante and pope gregory the great. not in the bible.

and it's actually more accurately described as avarice.

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skafather84
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13 Dec 2008, 2:04 pm

Fraya wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Basically I was pointing out that capitalism creates materialism which creates a lot of stuff that people don't need and only distract from the pursuit of lasting happiness.

Ok. To be honest, the pursuit of lasting happiness is probably pretty empty. I mean, for the most part, people have a baseline level of happiness that few things will really permanently impact. So, materialism or no materialism, people are likely going to be the same.

Then what's the point of materialism?

it's fun.

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13 Dec 2008, 2:08 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Then what's the point of materialism?

What's the point of a lot of things? People want something, it satisfies them for the moment, so they decide to get it.

Quote:

You're confusing need and want. That's a symptom of living in a materialistic society.

Well, the only things "needed" are food and water, but that is a bare-bones existence, and we are presupposing a person's values by doing that.

Yes people will always want things but I think capitalism just exacerbates the problem by trying to make people want things or in quantities they normally wouldn't.

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skafather84
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13 Dec 2008, 2:11 pm

Fraya wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Then what's the point of materialism?

What's the point of a lot of things? People want something, it satisfies them for the moment, so they decide to get it.

Quote:

You're confusing need and want. That's a symptom of living in a materialistic society.

Well, the only things "needed" are food and water, but that is a bare-bones existence, and we are presupposing a person's values by doing that.

Yes people will always want things but I think capitalism just exacerbates the problem by trying to make people want things or in quantities they normally wouldn't.

and that's why people manage their bills and don't overspend and if they do, they're quite miserable and hopefully have learned to not spend what they don't have.

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13 Dec 2008, 2:12 pm

Quote:

the 7 sins were listed in the 6th century by dante and pope gregory the great. not in the bible.

and it's actually more accurately described as avarice.

Greed, avarice, same thing. Please don't obfuscate. The Seven Deadly Sins are timeless, and they apply to everybody everywhere. Pope Gregory must have had a keen understanding of human nature.

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13 Dec 2008, 2:15 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Yes people will always want things but I think capitalism just exacerbates the problem by trying to make people want things or in quantities they normally wouldn't.

and that's why people manage their bills and don't overspend and if they do, they're quite miserable and hopefully have learned to not spend what they don't have.

I think the currently financial crunch caused by loans on top of loans finally crashing down proves the influence to buy is greater than the sense of most people not to spend more than they can afford.

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skafather84
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13 Dec 2008, 2:16 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

the 7 sins were listed in the 6th century by dante and pope gregory the great. not in the bible.

and it's actually more accurately described as avarice.

Greed, avarice, same thing.

not entirely. avarice is like greed on steroids. it's actually a pretty big difference. it's the difference between fraud and murder.

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13 Dec 2008, 2:30 pm

skafather84 wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

the 7 sins were listed in the 6th century by dante and pope gregory the great. not in the bible.

and it's actually more accurately described as avarice.

Greed, avarice, same thing.

not entirely. avarice is like greed on steroids. it's actually a pretty big difference. it's the difference between fraud and murder.

Whatever.

A rose by any other name ...

Orwell
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13 Dec 2008, 2:33 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Correct. The golden calf is a symbol of materialism, which of course fuels capitalism like gasoline fuels a pickup truck.

Not necessarily. I am strongly in favor of capitalism as the system that will get the best results, but I am not very materialistic. I live quite simply, and I am preparing myself for a career in which I put forth a great deal of work for relatively small rewards. How is this materialistic?

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Fraya
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13 Dec 2008, 2:35 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Whatever.

A rose by any other name ...

.. is still not a tulip.

I think he's saying a little personal greed is ok but when it becomes destructive to others or to yourself it is a sin.

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Fraya
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13 Dec 2008, 2:38 pm

Orwell wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Correct. The golden calf is a symbol of materialism, which of course fuels capitalism like gasoline fuels a pickup truck.

As a system it has a fatal flaw though. It's efficacy is directly related to the economic systems ability to grow. To extract more resources and produce more and more goods. If something interferes in that (such as the suddenly loss of a vital resource) it comes crashing down.

Exponential growth is not indefinitely sustainable when dealing with finite quantities of resources.

It's a car that can only keep going faster until the engine blows.

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Orwell
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13 Dec 2008, 2:41 pm

Slowmutant: From what I have read, Catholicism, especially in the Middle Ages, regarded personal ambition as sinful, deriving from the notion that it was Lucifer's ambition to become greater than God that led to the Fall. Protestantism (especially Calvinism) turned this around, and many scholars have attributed the differing sets of values between Protestants and Catholics for why northern European countries such as Holland and England became highly successful while Spain and France continued in stagnant decay. Basically, the stereotype that Catholics are lazy and Protestants are workaholics actually has some basis in reality and can be traced to their theology.

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Last edited by Orwell on 13 Dec 2008, 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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13 Dec 2008, 2:42 pm

Fraya wrote:

Orwell wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Correct. The golden calf is a symbol of materialism, which of course fuels capitalism like gasoline fuels a pickup truck.

or until you find or create more efficient resources or more efficient means to take advantage of the resources.

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13 Dec 2008, 2:44 pm

Fraya wrote:

No... not at all. If something interferes with that, capitalism provides incentives to find a workaround. It doesn't necessarily need growth, but capitalism does do the best job of promoting economic growth. Besides, in the modern economy growth is not based so much on natural resources as it it on new ideas. The economy can continue to grow as long as we keep coming up with new ideas.

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Fraya
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13 Dec 2008, 2:44 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Fraya wrote:

or until you find or create more efficient resources or more efficient means to take advantage of the resources.

True but that's just postponing the inevitable. Science is great but you can't always count on it solving the problem in time.

Orwell wrote:

Again though it requires periodic workarounds and new ideas to maintain itself. If one does not exist or fails to be found in time (which will always inevitably happen) the system fails.

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One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
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"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane

Last edited by Fraya on 13 Dec 2008, 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell
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13 Dec 2008, 2:45 pm

Fraya, I suspect that you do not have a very strong understanding of what capitalism is. Have you ever studied economics in a formal setting?

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