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Define morality?

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greenblue
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27 Jan 2009, 10:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
Everybody does something for a self-interest, even if it's only a warm, fuzzy feeling or to get an unpleasant situation over with.

If following that egoist position means that doing something that benefits others and the only retribution is a warm feeling out of your doing, then I would say yes, but I'm not sure how much that position stands against altruism, it seems a bit of a stretch.

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Yes, I honestly believe it ... religiously!

You bloody religionist!


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Awesomelyglorious
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27 Jan 2009, 10:15 pm

greenblue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Everybody does something for a self-interest, even if it's only a warm, fuzzy feeling or to get an unpleasant situation over with.

If following that egoist position means that doing something that benefits others and the only retribution is a warm feeling out of your doing, then I would say yes, but I'm not sure how much that position stands against altruism.

I don't see how it would have much stand against what is commonly called altruism, the major issue is that agents are always acting upon their own motives. I mean, we can call this something other than egoism, but I don't see much reason to say that helping another person is a massively different act than helping oneself in this view, as the actions follow the same conceptual pathway of idea->action.



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27 Jan 2009, 10:21 pm

Sometimes, helping another person outweighs the bad rep you'd get from not having done so. But most of the time, I'm content to ignore the plight of those around me. Otherwise, I'd go broke supporting all the deadbeats and freeloaders in my own family!

Besides, there's no profit in Altruism - people just don't get rich by giving all of their money away!


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27 Jan 2009, 10:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
This is how I see morality defined by a high-ranking church official:

1. If I'm not able to have sex, then no one else should either.

2. Fun is noisy, messy, and costs money. Besides, you didn't invite me, so no more fun!

3. Alcohol and drugs lead to fun and sex - sometimes both - so no more alcohol!

4. You should be in church, giving me ... *ahem* ... the Lord your money. So for one day out of the week, be here to listen to how sinful you are, and to put more money in the collection than you can afford.

5. Speaking of money, the more you spend on yourself, the less you have to give to the Lord. So you should live in abject poverty - no display of wealth - no matter how much money you make.

6. I will deny every accusation of immorality directed at me, even if you catch me in the act. I am a church leader, so I am above all the rules that I ... *ahem* ... the Lord makes for you.

7. Smile. Be happy. Enjoy your misery. Have a nice day.


You enjoy your misery, don't you? Without it, what would you have?



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27 Jan 2009, 10:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sometimes, helping another person outweighs the bad rep you'd get from not having done so. But most of the time, I'm content to ignore the plight of those around me. Otherwise, I'd go broke supporting all the deadbeats and freeloaders in my own family!

That is also true as well, the moderating force of altruistic actions ends up being a different form of egoism. We often help people because we identify with them, or we want them to be like us, that is rarely as altruistic as people tend to think.



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27 Jan 2009, 10:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sometimes, helping another person outweighs the bad rep you'd get from not having done so. But most of the time, I'm content to ignore the plight of those around me. Otherwise, I'd go broke supporting all the deadbeats and freeloaders in my own family!

Besides, there's no profit in Altruism - people just don't get rich by giving all of their money away!


You truly are an SOB, Fnord.



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27 Jan 2009, 10:35 pm

... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.


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27 Jan 2009, 10:40 pm

Orwell wrote:
greenblue wrote:
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I can help others without expecting that they will be able to repay the favor. What's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that from my perspective, but from the position of egoism, which it seems that is Fnord's and AG's position in this thread, if I'm not mistaken, there would be either skepticism or negation about the existence of altruism or the honesty of altruism, but AG is the one who can give a better output on this.

Egoism is abominable, and usually short-sighted.


Agreed! Narcissism is pretty revolting, as well. Ditto for nihilism and materialism.

Do you not think so, Orwell? Please tell me tell me you think so.



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27 Jan 2009, 10:46 pm

Fnord wrote:
... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.


No it isn't.



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27 Jan 2009, 10:57 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. :P


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greenblue
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27 Jan 2009, 11:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sometimes, helping another person outweighs the bad rep you'd get from not having done so.

well, we then would come to the issue of utilitarianism, in this case, in which it wouldn't really matter the motive, from that perspective, this is how it seems society functions in the end.

I don't deny that self-interest and especially self-preservation is what motive people to do and restrain from actions, especially from historical religious grounds, for fear of punishment and persuing an afterlife, as the fundamental basic for behaviour, as for avoiding punishment by the law.

I have assumed that people can help others, out of compasion and empathy without necessarily expecting some retribution, obviously with some sort of limit, without stop caring about oneself, that is, without having to self-sacrifice or self-damaging, you could argue however that that would be an illusion, I have to admit that can be very possible.

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Besides, there's no profit in Altruism - people just don't get rich by giving all of their money away!

No, they don't, however "altruism" (quoted because I admit it can be apparent only) can build good relations, I mean, it benefits you more making friends than making enemies, which increases your security and it fits well for your self-interest, I suppose I may be getting more into utilitarianism than actually altruism :?: Although it could be said that to be egoism in the end.


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Last edited by greenblue on 27 Jan 2009, 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

greenblue
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27 Jan 2009, 11:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. :P

Evidence, Please? :P


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27 Jan 2009, 11:07 pm

greenblue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. :P

Evidence, Please? :P

Aww, c'mon! You're supposed to say, "No it isn't"!


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greenblue
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27 Jan 2009, 11:09 pm

Fnord wrote:
Aww, c'mon! You're supposed to say, "No it isn't"!

Oops!


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27 Jan 2009, 11:13 pm

Good grief! How can anyone expect to maintain a childish argument if no one else will cooperate?! !

I mean ... really! :roll:


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27 Jan 2009, 11:18 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Egoism is abominable, and usually short-sighted.

Instead of "egoism is", insert "people are".

Egoist people are abominable, and usually short-sighted :P


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