Pacifism, Pt 2

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Dox47
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28 Jan 2009, 6:28 pm

I do think that pacifism has it's time and place, but that it is ineffective as an overarching philosophy. For example, pacifism was the most effective choice for the civil rights movement in America, or the Indian independence movement, violent resistance not only would have caused more harm, it wouldn't have worked. However, when it comes to walking the streets at night in bad areas, pacifism is not the best choice, if the criminal element knows or even suspects that they can victimize you without any risk to themselves, what's to stop them? Relying on the police for protection in that situation isn't really pacifism, it's mental sleight of hand shifting the responsibility on to someone else to use violence or it's threat to provide the protection that you are unwilling to give yourself.

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raggle-taggle-gypsy
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28 Jan 2009, 8:00 pm

Sometimes you have to enforce pacifism with violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

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greenblue
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28 Jan 2009, 8:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Do you know how we dealt with Japanese and German violence? With American violence. Ours was better and we won. Now Japan and Germany are well behaved. Isn't it marvelous what violence can accomplish?

Does that mean that the use of weapons of mass destruction against a civilian populated area is a justified mean for peace?

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ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 8:12 pm

greenblue wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Does that mean that the use of weapons of mass destruction against a civilian populated area is a justified mean for peace?

Absofreakinglutely. When your enemy starts a war with you, you are justified in using any means whatsoever to win it. We nuked two large cities in Japan bringing the war to an end. Doing so save a million Allied lives and incidently save millions of Japanese lives. If we had to invade we would have ended up using more nukes and gas against the Japanese. President Truman authorized the use of gas against Japan although it was never used since the nukes were sufficient to make them stop fighting.

ruveyn

slowmutant
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28 Jan 2009, 10:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

Pacifism can be suicidal and irrational

More suicidal & irrational than violence? :chin:

When is fighting an enemy that attacks us suicidal? Surrendering is more suicidal.

ruveyn

Who is this enemy you speak of?

Magnus
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28 Jan 2009, 10:16 pm

Pacifism is for the enlightened. Those who have a mission are warriors. Don't take the easy route. Take the truthful route. Why are you here? Deal with it. That's the s**t that reality is made of. When you have nothing to lose, then you become a warrior. A body is just a body.

slowmutant
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28 Jan 2009, 10:18 pm

What about warriorship of a different kind?

What about spiritual warriorship?

Sand
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28 Jan 2009, 10:41 pm

slowmutant wrote:

What about warriorship of a different kind?

What about spiritual warriorship?

Aha! The spiritual weapons that were used in the tortures of the Inquisition to frighten people into surrender.

Magnus
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28 Jan 2009, 11:22 pm

Sand, don't be a dork.

Sand
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29 Jan 2009, 12:10 am

Magnus wrote:

Sand, don't be a dork.

If I'm a dork I seem to be in good company.

DentArthurDent
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29 Jan 2009, 1:55 am

ruveyn wrote:

I just love people that look at the result and not the cause, yes if you start a war you sort of have to finish it. However your dumb warrior mentality means a country like the US, can do whatever it likes, and if someone gets pissed off with how you are behaving and punches you on the nose; well fuckem just blow em up and take absolutely no responsibility for your actions that led to the original punch. For pities sake even schools now bust the balls of a kid that provoked the fight.

Has it ever occured to you just why so many people hate Americans so much that they suicide bomb, or are you really that simplistic in your thinking that you believe the BS propaganda about 72 virgins in heaven

ruveyn and the rest of you warmongers (oops sorry warriors :roll:

) grow up and and learn about why wars start in the first place, and then try to prevent them.

Sorry I forgot you don't want to prevent wars because you profit from them along with all the other parasites

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ruveyn
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29 Jan 2009, 5:21 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

ruveyn and the rest of you warmongers (oops sorry warriors :roll:

I have studied history. Wars happens because there is a dark side to our psychological make up. Some of us are determined to rule and dominate. They start wars. The rest of us must either put up with this or fight it.

When nasty folks stop trying to run other people's lives, then maybe there won't be wars. At most there will be domestic disputes.

As to profiting from war that is a problem. As long as we have enemies we will need weapons. When we don't have enemies (I shall not hold my breath until that happens) we can get back to beating our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. By the way there is profit to be made in manufacturing plowshares and pruning hooks.

There is a basic asymmetry to human existence. Peaceful productive folk do not need the Dominators and the Rulers. But Dominators and Rulers need peaceful productive folk to use and abuse. Many peaceful folk will not take abuse lying down. They will not be doormats. And that is why there will always be wars.

ruveyn

DentArthurDent
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29 Jan 2009, 5:45 am

ruveyn wrote:

The only way wars can continue is if the average person joins in. If the majority learn and understand the historical causes of war and refuse to join in then imperialist fuckwits cannot get their way.It is up to the average person of all nationalities to refuse to kill each other.

ruveyn
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29 Jan 2009, 9:11 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

The only way wars can continue is if the average person joins in. If the majority learn and understand the historical causes of war and refuse to join in then imperialist f**** cannot get their way.It is up to the average person of all nationalities to refuse to kill each other.

Taking you at your word, you would have advocated that the people of Britain submit to Nazi rule, back in 1940. Apparently you are a willing slave.

What would you do if an armed person broke into your home and threatened your relatives. Would you at least think of some way of stopping him?

ruveyn

slowmutant
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29 Jan 2009, 10:26 am

Sand wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

What about warriorship of a different kind?

What about spiritual warriorship?

Aha! The spiritual weapons that were used in the tortures of the Inquisition to frighten people into surrender.

No, that's not spiritual warriorship at all. That's thuggery.

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