America Finito?

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Henriksson
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13 Mar 2009, 5:30 pm

phil777 wrote:

"Gearing up for war brought an end to the Depression."

As per the militaro-industrial complex (which reached militaro-politico-industrial status with Bush ;p ).

5000 extra paper clips to Pentagon should get the economy going. :wink:

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ruveyn
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13 Mar 2009, 5:54 pm

Haliphron wrote:

So you're convinced that that is Nothing that a federal government can do to salvage a tanking economy?
Should we let the banks fail to??.............. :roll:

There is a lot they can do. Tax breaks in the right places would help a great deal.

Also ditching many of the environmental restrictions would help. They cost money and stifle business which is what we need now more than ever.

ruveyn

Haliphron
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13 Mar 2009, 6:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

So you're convinced that that is Nothing that a federal government can do to salvage a tanking economy?
Should we let the banks fail to??.............. :roll:

Tax breaks for the RICH, eh? Thats what happened during the Bush adminstration and thanks to their reckless behaviour we're in the mess that we are today. Is that what they call voodoo economics? That was tried by Herbert Hoover before FDR was elected and it only WORSENED the great depression...

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13 Mar 2009, 7:04 pm

Henriksson wrote:

BTW, shouldn't Paranin be a bit concerned about his homeland as well? Alcohol abuse, crime, unstable political system...

Russia has p.c. roughly the same GDP as Botswana, but in Botswana the weather is better and Botswana is a functioning democracy.

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13 Mar 2009, 7:13 pm

anna-banana wrote:

LOOOOL part of America joining the European Union!! !???

they even don't want Turkey in, and Turkey is at least partly (and culturally) on the European continent!

This other reasons: The difference in matters of economy, political system, ideology and culture between London, Paris or Rome on the one side and New York or Boston on other side is far less than the difference of this cities to Ankara or Istanbul. This is less a question of religion, but more what defines a civil society. Just one example: We have in Europe numerous laws protecting minority languages (as Friesian, Welsh, Basks, Sorbian). In Turkey even recently people were sentenced to prison for using the Kurdish language. That's a difference.

Dussel
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13 Mar 2009, 7:27 pm

ruveyn wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

Haves, and have nots, Orwell. I'd assume some of that will correlate with ethnicity, and location within the US. It amazes me how blind some of you Americans are to the mess you're in, but I still think the prediction given a little too pessimistic.

Not a sufficient explanation for turmoil and civil war. There have always been haves and have-nots. Such was Europe under feudalism, and there was no civil war. No uprising of the oppressed peasants. It was the middle class that remade Europe. And they were the haves, not the have-nots.

There were war: A long of this wars can be compiled: The German Peasant War of 1520s with perhaps up to 100'000 victims. The peasant revolts in England. The French Revolution, the Commune de Paris, the revolutions in Europe of 1830 and 1848, the English Civil War, the War of the Netherlands for Independence, and-so-on.

One of the teachings the ruling classes had learned is to take care that the lower classes are well feed. The real power lays with the people, but if the people are well feed and entertained, they will not exercise this power. Therefore even the elites in Europe are only too happy to support a social network. Also the experienced showed that if the people really exercise their power even worst can happen.

Dussel
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13 Mar 2009, 7:32 pm

Orwell wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

You plainly know very little about America. There is not so much class consciousness as you imagine (Marxism being rather out of fashion). The "have nots" are not about to unify to fight against the "haves."

This "class consciousness" can develop quite quickly. Look into the history of the French Revolution, when political organisations among the class line appear within months out of the blue.

But: Prior a tipping point must be reached. At least a very significant proportion of the population must be in state that they have nothing to loose and a revolutionary change would be their only chance to change this situation. The USA are far away from such a point.

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14 Mar 2009, 8:31 am

Dussel wrote:

Orwell wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

We are nowhere near a French Revolution stage in terms of political and economic crisis.

And remember folks, this is a global crisis. People are speaking as though the US is the only country affected. Most of Europe will collapse before the US does.

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Vexcalibur
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14 Mar 2009, 8:57 am

The internet hype rule states:

Probability of a prediction happening equals 1/Log_2(# of posts agreeing with it+2)

What scares me the most is that there are many posts skeptical of this , so it might actually happen.

Quote:

And remember folks, this is a global crisis. People are speaking as though the US is the only country affected. Most of Europe will collapse before the US does.

Ha, you wish.

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ruveyn
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14 Mar 2009, 10:07 am

Haliphron wrote:

Tax breaks for small business and entrepreneurs would be more like it. The large corporations tend to be rent-collectors, seekers after subsidies and generally welfare-queens. The last thing we need it to give tax revenues to G.M. or Archer-Midland-Daniels. Both corporate welfare-queens. Actually we should let the large corporations in distress go bust. Their assets will be purchased by more capable business people.

But keep in mind, it is your boy Obama who is increasing the hand-outs.

Bob Kolker

ascan
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14 Mar 2009, 11:41 am

ruveyn wrote:

Actually we should let the large corporations in distress go bust. Their assets will be purchased by more capable business people.

What with, buttons? It's not called a credit crunch for nothing, you know. Letting the likes of your car makers go bust is one thing, but if you're thinking of certain systemically-critical financial institutions then in the aftermath nobody's going to have much ability, or appetite, to purchase anything.

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14 Mar 2009, 11:45 am

Orwell wrote:

Dussel wrote:

But: Prior a tipping point must be reached. At least a very significant proportion of the population must be in state that they have nothing to loose and a revolutionary change would be their only chance to change this situation. The USA are far away from such a point.

I would be not that certain that Europe would collapse quicker. European societies have more experience with a collapse than the US. And there is an other main difference economically: The central bank, the ECB, is much more sound currently than the FED. The reason is to see in the books: The FED has a lot of the so-called "toxic assets" in the books (nearly 2/3 of the balance), the ECB none.

ZEGH8578
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14 Mar 2009, 11:55 am

just a "food for thought" that popped into my head

since america is all about privatization, and allows private militias to exist

what if ANY sort of "future split" of america, would be based in privately owned countries?

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14 Mar 2009, 2:26 pm

Dussel wrote:

I would be not that certain that Europe would collapse quicker. European societies have more experience with a collapse than the US.

This is actually kind of why I would assume Europe would fall faster. It's been a while since Europe managed to remain stable for prolonged periods of time.

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Dussel
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14 Mar 2009, 2:45 pm

Orwell wrote:

Dussel wrote:

I would be not that certain that Europe would collapse quicker. European societies have more experience with a collapse than the US.

This is actually kind of why I would assume Europe would fall faster. It's been a while since Europe managed to remain stable for prolonged periods of time.

The structures in Europe perhaps are more robust (or just better tested). An extreme example you can see in Germany in Feb. to Jun. 1945. Even most of the infrastructure was broken down and it was not clear how is the German government or even is there one, the administration did their job: Birth and marriage certificates were issued (the father of a friend of mine married on 08 May 1945), the rail tried to run as much service as possible, if possible mail was transported, banks were open, so far possible, etc. pp.

Even in this extreme situation with fighting in the country, a total collapse of the central government, occupational forces still not really exercising their power in all places, the country did not collapse. The framework of administration and running services was still maintained by the local bureaucracy.

They did the same what their French or Netherlands colleagues did some years earlier and what generations of civil servants in Europe did over the centuries: Keeping the machinery running, regardless how is now the "big boss".

ruveyn
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14 Mar 2009, 3:25 pm

ascan wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Actually we should let the large corporations in distress go bust. Their assets will be purchased by more capable business people.

Solution. Remonitize gold and silver. Problem solved.

ruveyn

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