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cyberdad
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27 Jun 2021, 6:25 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
is that taking the interpretation of the metaphor 'truth university' as 'white hegemony university' or is it something else entirely?


what is a a truth university?



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27 Jun 2021, 6:48 pm

cyberdad wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
is that taking the interpretation of the metaphor 'truth university' as 'white hegemony university' or is it something else entirely?


what is a a truth university?

Four minute video, go back and watch. The longer version would be watching Jonathan Haidt's "Two incompatible sacred values in American universities" from October 2016 (1 hr 6 min) linked here .


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27 Jun 2021, 7:56 pm

The "truth university" stuff just looks like a rebrand of anti intellectualism, where they get to choose what counts. Kind of seems like PragerU, which pretends to be a university, but tends to be really dishonest with data, and largely plays on preconceived assumptions.


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cyberdad
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27 Jun 2021, 8:13 pm

Ok so from Haidt's perspective
truth university (TU) - seeking knowledge using evidence based approaches
social justice university (SJU) - seeking knowledge using lived experience

According to Haidt and Kaufman SJWs want to elevate the SJU over the TU

Kaufman claims specific disciplines where SJU > TU
For example race studies, cultural studies, indigenous studies, LGBTQI and gender studies.

The underlying principle is that scientific and social disciplines are taught from a western-European cultural bias and secondly that studies that examine (for example) indigenous culture should be driven by lived experience from indigenous people as opposed to non-indigenous people projecting their views as more important than lived experience.

Where kaufman's/Haidt's arguments fall over is the assumption that lived experience in these bespoke areas of research i) apply to STEM ii) that lived experience automatically trumps evidence based research.

What the objection here seems to be is i) minority groups encroaching into disciplines involving their own people and ii) the undermining of evidence based approaches

Both of these arguments are not supported by evidence either of them have provided? It seems they are talking about tripping some type of switch where entertaining SJU will cause science to regress which they then use to unfairly misattribute to label the political left as regressive (I mean why bring politics into this?).

I don't find their arguments intellectually valid or (ironically) evidence based.



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27 Jun 2021, 10:54 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well I said before that I usually prefer European and Asian movies for not having gone 'woke',


The movies you are referring to are not watched by most American audiences.


Oh yes, for sure, but what's your point?



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27 Jun 2021, 10:57 pm

In Australia foreign films are considered "fringe"
Indeed we have a "fringe festival" each year that showcases foreign cinema/art etc...

If you are talking about "wokeness" then the mainstream American media is what's relevant.



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27 Jun 2021, 11:00 pm

Oh well it's just since European and Asian cinema does not have woke political correctness in their movies, I was wondering, if that makes them more further ahead of the game in progression, or more behind, or neither?



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27 Jun 2021, 11:11 pm

ironpony wrote:
I was wondering, if that makes them more further ahead of the game in progression, or more behind, or neither?


If your criteria is authenticity (as an art-form) then you could argue they are more progressive than Hollywood. But don't forget that America has a thriving independent film industry (I assume you already know that as you are part of this).



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27 Jun 2021, 11:36 pm

Oh okay, I guess Hollywood movies feel inauthentic to me compared to non-American movies. America has an indenpendant industry but their is pressure in that industry to go woke as well, as some people in the indie-industry where I live are starting to do it, it seems.



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27 Jun 2021, 11:52 pm

ironpony wrote:
America has an indenpendant industry but their is pressure in that industry to go woke as well, as some people in the indie-industry where I live are starting to do it, it seems.


Can you give me an example?



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27 Jun 2021, 11:54 pm

Not of any completed movies. Just ones getting started up right now, with covid dying down.



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27 Jun 2021, 11:56 pm

ironpony wrote:
Not of any completed movies. Just ones getting started up right now, with covid dying down.


Hey BTW what's your view on the new directions Star Wars is taking?



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28 Jun 2021, 12:04 am

Oh the last Star Wars movie I saw was The Last Jedi. It was okay, but I lost interest after that and haven't seen any after. Why?



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28 Jun 2021, 1:08 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh the last Star Wars movie I saw was The Last Jedi. It was okay, but I lost interest after that and haven't seen any after. Why?


There's talk of new projects after the Mandalorian and bad batch including stand alone stories on Ashoka Tano, Obi Wan, Bona Fett and even Mace Windu



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28 Jun 2021, 9:16 am

Oh I haven't seen any of those shows and lost interest in Star Wars after The Last Jedi, so I cannot comment on those shows.

But the problem for me, with the woke generation when it comes to entertainment, is that they do not like things that are politically incorrect. Anything that is considered politically incorrect, they want censored. And this is the problem when it comes to fiction writing, because if everything has to be politically correct, then there is no conflict, or if there is, it's very limited conflict, and limited stakes.

So political correctness, and conflict/stakes work against each other, and that is why you cannot have stories that thrive on political correctness, and still expect them to grip people.

A lot of 'woke' people, do not seem to understand this though, or maybe I am wrong, but that is just how it seems...



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28 Jun 2021, 3:25 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Ok so from Haidt's perspective
truth university (TU) - seeking knowledge using evidence based approaches
social justice university (SJU) - seeking knowledge using lived experience

According to Haidt and Kaufman SJWs want to elevate the SJU over the TU

Kaufman claims specific disciplines where SJU > TU
For example race studies, cultural studies, indigenous studies, LGBTQI and gender studies.

The underlying principle is that scientific and social disciplines are taught from a western-European cultural bias and secondly that studies that examine (for example) indigenous culture should be driven by lived experience from indigenous people as opposed to non-indigenous people projecting their views as more important than lived experience.

Where kaufman's/Haidt's arguments fall over is the assumption that lived experience in these bespoke areas of research i) apply to STEM ii) that lived experience automatically trumps evidence based research.

What the objection here seems to be is i) minority groups encroaching into disciplines involving their own people and ii) the undermining of evidence based approaches

Both of these arguments are not supported by evidence either of them have provided? It seems they are talking about tripping some type of switch where entertaining SJU will cause science to regress which they then use to unfairly misattribute to label the political left as regressive (I mean why bring politics into this?).

I don't find their arguments intellectually valid or (ironically) evidence based.

I think during late 2016 things were looking bad enough that it was a credible concern. The one thing Haidt did hit in that lecture, with fields not keeping their containment, was business flooding sciences and other professions whose 'telos' was public service and the invasion of that telos by business ($$) was malpractice. I sort of thing that's more the root problem that woke was an indirect reaction to.

A lot of things have changed in the past few years as well, including a lot of pushback against the anti-science side of the movement and I think it's been starting to course-correct accordingly (or at least I've been hearing things piled into 'whiteness' as much that seem to better qualify as adult sophistication). That concern, as well as the chilling of speech, was a large part of where the Harpers letter was coming from and it's a big part of what was bothering the left and center left about the movement.


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