Why is there so much liberal hate?

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TM
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14 Jul 2012, 10:10 am

nominalist wrote:

I am pointing out that capitalism results in the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few. I would prefer to "allow" companies to become economic democracies.

The problem is that democracy for the lack of a better word is ret*d. Egalitarianism is fine when it comes to race, creed, or whatnot, but not when it comes to abilities because some have more and more refined abilities than others. The sooner the "liberals" realize that we are not created equal in terms of abilities and potential the sooner I can stop giggling at you.

Companies can become economic democracies today, all it requires is that the workers purchase shares in the company that they work for and thus obtain voting rights.

The reason why capitalism tends to concentrate wealth in the hands of the few is that it's the most effective way to run the system, in effect those who have shown themselves efficient and effective in maximizing the potential of capital get more of it.

Vigilans
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14 Jul 2012, 10:21 am

bizboy1 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Delphiki wrote:

bizboy1 wrote:

edgewaters wrote:

bizboy1 wrote:

Yes because me living with my parents gives reason to have a nanny state. I disagree. My parent's volunteer their resources, they are not forced. They can kick me out anytime.

The point is, you have absolutely no experience at all in being responsible for yourself, yet you feel you have the right to criticize others who are far more independant than you. You've got people who are doing everything but wiping your butt for you, and you're an adult.

Really? (sarcasm). I think you're making some incorrect assumptions. Confusing yourself with me? I have the right to defend my beliefs that taxation, especially at the federal level, is morally wrong. How is being and WANTING to be on welfare more independent? And for your last statement, troll harder bro.

Who said people go on welfare because they want to?

That's something Republicans say about poor people on welfare so many times that they eventually believe it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Or liberals continue to deny. Take an economics course.

Do mom and pop offer home economics courses when they aren't working for your room, board and daily bread, or are you a university student of some kind with an expertise in economics?

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Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2012, 1:22 pm

TM wrote:

nominalist wrote:

I am pointing out that capitalism results in the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few. I would prefer to "allow" companies to become economic democracies.

In regard to equality in to the democratic and liberal traditions - it's not that everyone is believed to be equal in intelligence and capability, but rather that everyone is of equal worth, and should have equal rights.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

bizboy1
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14 Jul 2012, 1:52 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

TM wrote:

nominalist wrote:

I am pointing out that capitalism results in the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few. I would prefer to "allow" companies to become economic democracies.

In regard to equality in to the democratic and liberal traditions - it's not that everyone is believed to be equal in intelligence and capability, but rather that everyone is of equal worth, and should have equal rights.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Same thing with capitalism. As a Libertarian, I view everyone as equally worthy and equal in terms of rights. Does that mean everyone should have the same X amount of dollars in their pocket? Hell no.

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Oodain
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14 Jul 2012, 2:39 pm

and no one is arguing that, we are arguing that no one should be left to die from a lack of financial security.

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marshall
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14 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

nominalist wrote:

Bill:

Yes, there are some of us. However, my observation is that libertarianism is almost suited to Autism - freedom and independence. Personally, I am much more concerned with social justice than freedom.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive unless taken to absurd extremes, at which point they become almost incoherent and contradictory. I see the extreme laissez-faire capitalist version of freedom (i.e. excluding fraud and the initiation of force, anything goes) to be anything but freedom. True freedom expands possibilities of pursuit to all individuals. Laissez-faire anarchy simply delivers disproportionate power to those with more wealth at the start of the game, and disproportionate power always limits the freedom of those with less power.

It's also a bit daft to assume laissez-faire extremism would grant freedom or independence for an autistic person when so much of the power structure in capitalist society is founded on social ability.

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14 Jul 2012, 3:00 pm

Oodain wrote:

and no one is arguing that, we are arguing that no one should be left to die from a lack of financial security.

A state that has the capacity to feed many also has the ability to starve many.

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Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2012, 3:07 pm

bizboy1 wrote:

Oodain wrote:

and no one is arguing that, we are arguing that no one should be left to die from a lack of financial security.

A state that has the capacity to feed many also has the ability to starve many.

No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion. And even if it did, does that justify letting people die when they could have been helped?
And speaking of values - I thought you people were always ballyhooing about how your morals and family values were supposed to be so superior to those of the left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

marshall
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14 Jul 2012, 3:23 pm

Vigilans wrote:

bizboy1 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Delphiki wrote:

bizboy1 wrote:

edgewaters wrote:

bizboy1 wrote:

Yes because me living with my parents gives reason to have a nanny state. I disagree. My parent's volunteer their resources, they are not forced. They can kick me out anytime.

Who said people go on welfare because they want to?

That's something Republicans say about poor people on welfare so many times that they eventually believe it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Or liberals continue to deny. Take an economics course.

Do mom and pop offer home economics courses when they aren't working for your room, board and daily bread, or are you a university student of some kind with an expertise in economics?

I can't stand getting the "take a course in economics" crap from libertarians. It's obnoxious when libertarians often suffer from epistemic closure when it comes to economics. You aren't an expert just because Adam Smith and Friedrick Hayek give you a hard on.

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14 Jul 2012, 3:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion.

You have a lot more faith in the goodness of government than I ever will.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-George Washington

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marshall
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14 Jul 2012, 3:36 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion.

You have a lot more faith in the goodness of "the invisible hand" than I do. Also, if a government is being "bad" you are still free to vote and change that. It's called democracy.

nominalist
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14 Jul 2012, 3:37 pm

TM wrote:

I am not a liberal. The modern concept of liberalism comes from the European Enlightenment. It stressed liberty (the root of liberalism), rationalism, and individualism. I am largely opposed to those ideas.

In any event, by personalizing your comments - saying you are giggling at me - you already lost the argument. As soon as that happens, you conceded. The discussion is over.

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nominalist
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14 Jul 2012, 3:42 pm

marshall wrote:

IMO, libertarianism is that "absurd extreme." Other views of liberty balance it out with other factors, including the need for government regulation.

Raptor
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14 Jul 2012, 4:00 pm

marshall wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion.

You have a lot more faith in the goodness of "the invisible hand" than I do. Also, if a government is being "bad" you are still free to vote and change that. It's called democracy.

No, I have faith in the will and resourcefulness of the individual, followed by the "invisible hand", followed by limited government.
And trust me I do vote.

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Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2012, 4:29 pm

Raptor wrote:

marshall wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:

No, it does not - not when that government lives up to the values of fairness and compassion.

You have a lot more faith in the goodness of "the invisible hand" than I do. Also, if a government is being "bad" you are still free to vote and change that. It's called democracy.

No, I have faith in the will and resourcefulness of the individual, followed by the "invisible hand", followed by limited government.
And trust me I do vote.

You talk about the individual and the "invisible hand" as if they were God Almighty.
Well, I'm more willing to trust in the real Almighty long before I'll put my trust in your Randian idols.
And yes, despite what right wing propagandists say, liberals can believe in God.
And it so happens, the Good Book says the Lord puts those governments you so fear and dislike above us, and so should be respected as such (with the obvious extreme exceptions such as Nazism and the like, I should think).

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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14 Jul 2012, 5:45 pm

Thomas Sowell exposing twisted liberal thinking

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rcNR63hNoc[/youtube]

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