The "Black Hole" of woke....

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Love that programme!!

The problem is that trans is a completely different thing than gay or bi, and that artificially conflating them is manipulative and deceptive, including a cadre of people with a genuine mental health disorder (yes, gender dysphoria is still classified as a disorder, it's not a slur) in a group that doesn't actually share any other characteristics with them in order to claim that the whole group is more fragile and delicate than it really is.

Further, the "science" around trans issues is highly disputed and unstable ground, I would hesitate to call anything in that arena either well known or a fact at this particular point. There are serious question about the safety of using puberty blockers with young teens, for example, with dueling claims about the effects and reversibility of the drugs, but trans activists are making research in this area extremely fraught by demonizing and attacking anyone who raises any questions, often using the emotional blackmail of the trans suicide rate as a cudgel. Then there's the way that proponents of the ROGD and AGP models of transgenderism have been publicly crucified, including professional consequences such as having their works banned from Amazon as well as long term harassment campaigns. My own local state school, the UW just got caught putting out a highly flawed study regarding the safety of puberty blockers and then refusing to acknowledge the flaws when called out on them due to all of the positive news coverage the initial misleading study received:

https://mynorthwest.com/3602854/rantz-d ... -coverage/

This is really the norm in this area, I'd be extremely cautious making any definite claims regarding anything to do with trans issues and science or medicine, it's so politicized that you often need to dig through layers and layers of BS to find any hard data or evidence.



I hope they have their eyes wide open then, that whole area of medicine is a politicized snakepit.

Last edited by Dox47 on 03 Sep 2022, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i liked the one where a policeman got in trouble for trying to manipulate a man into giving him money. his colleagues thought he was an idiot

Isn’t any area of change or potential change going to become a politicized snake pit in today’s world?

It wasn’t always this bad.

I think my relative has been doing this for 20-30 years. A lot comes from his personal realized experience.

In more socially developed countries (After overturning Roe Vs Wade the US no longer classified as socially advanced) there are anti-vilification laws which apply social sanctions against those who willingly engage in hate speech against minority groups.

However the for Trans people there has been resistance against the application of this legislation in terms of anti-bullying policies in schools and equal access to educational and infrastructural resources in public spaces.

Participation in sports is just one of the areas that there's been pushback against trans rights. Public toilets and the use of pronouns in educational institutions are other examples.

The LGBTQI community have barely a few years of victory with overturning marriage laws (the campaign is actually still fresh in the memories of Australians).

Religious schools are using their freedom of religion to engage in isolating and ostracising LGBTQI students and staff. So at least on that front the war continues against the anti-woke mob.

We don't have a big enough font for the LOL this one deserves. Countries so "socially developed" they need government censorship? You also seem less than familiar with the abortion laws of Europe, which I assure you, are often much more restrictive than both Roe and post Roe American law, not that I'm surprised by the ignorance at this point.

Last edited by magz on 04 Sep 2022, 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.: Most obvious personal attacks removed.

“Europe” is not a single entity when it comes to abortion law. Abortion is legal in the Netherlands, for example, but healthcare and education are so readily available that the country also has an abortion rate among the lowest in the world.

@Cyber, while I politically support abortion rights, your statement about the US made me cringe. I don’t think socially developed status can or should be defined by how a country handles abortion. I’m not with the ethicists who try to claim that sometimes abortion should be required; that goes too far. I’m not with anyone making a values claim that either side of the issue is the only enlightened approach in any circumstance. Approaches on both sides of the debate fail to recognize just how complex and highly personal the issue can be. We can’t have what I think is the right conversation if either side pretends it holds all the high ground.

There are other stats and indicators that suggest we aren’t quite the beacon to the world that we once were, but that is another topic.

Last edited by magz on 04 Sep 2022, 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.: Quoted personal attacks edited.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are indeed different things, but there's a lot of natural overlap. Varying degrees of gender nonconformity are indeed more common (though certainly not universal) among gays/lesbians and bisexuals than among heterosexuals. Furthermore, traditional popular prejudices against gays/lesbians have often been bound up with traditional popular prejudices against gender nonconformity, e.g. gay men have traditionally been said to be "effeminate."


What constitutes a "mental health disorder" is somewhat subjective. Being gay was considered a disorder too until 1973.

Currently, transgender people who seek gender-related medical treatments need the "disorder" classification in order to be eligible for those treatments. Gender-nonconforming people who don't seek such treatments don't need to be considered "disordered."


See above.


LGB young people ARE also at relatively high risk of suicide, even though that risk may not be as high for LGB kids as it is for trans kids. See, for example, Nearly a third of young gay people have attempted suicide, study finds, NBC News, April 20, 2021.


I agree that there is currently too much political pressure, from various quarters, for the relevant science to be considered reliable.

Extrapolate that backwards and you might see why I'm taking those suicide statistics with a grain of salt, like I do with any "statistics" in heavily disputed arenas. I'm forever grateful to the show The Wire for putting the term "juking the stats" into the popular vernacular and demonstrating how it's done, there are so many ways to mislead with statistics, even those that are factually true.

Even if the exact statistics are not reliable, it does seem at least plausible to me that GLB young people would be at higher risk of suicide than heterosexual young people. Is there a reason why this does not seem plausible to you?

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 04 Sep 2022, 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

---

It Doesn't Take A 'Rocket Scientist'
(Without the Ability to Build A Rocket
to the Moon That Will Really Lift-Off)
To Understand That People Who Are
Constantly Marginalized and Treated As
Outcasts in Society Are More Likely to Commit Suicide.

Case in Point, Autistic Folks; Yes Baby, As Well As 'LGBQT

Folks too;' Yet of Course When You Are Not Comfortable in the
Body You Are Born in And There is Literally No Escape, Let's Just Use

Common Sense
And Feel of Empathy
IF We Have Enough Cognitive
Empathy and Compassion to Figure

Out What is Obvious As Birds With Feathers who actually Fly.

And For The Folks Here Who Suggest That Emotional Pain isn't
As Hard As Physical Pain, Let's Just Refer Back to the Empathy Above That's REAL;

This is Stuff that Most Grade School Kids Have Figured Out; And True Now they are
More 'Acclimatized' New to 'Different' And the Hope for a Newer World of Love For the

Marginalized in

Society For Real.

Human Ignorance
in All the SHades of
Grey to BLacK Abyss
it comes in is Responsible
For the Most Harming, Raping,
Maiming, Killing oF All of Nature
NoW As 'This CuLTuRaL Pandemic' That Humans
Bring Will Hopefully Find A Remedy Sooner than soon...

Yes! Through Social Justice Baby! For all, Not Just Old Angry Dudes, Etc...

WAKE THE F
UP! GROW A Damned HeART!
Hey! if the Grinch WiLL Do it!
And Even if Trump Can't, THere

is Still God Damned Grinch Hope Left;

And To Be Clear This isn't Personally
Directed to 'The Audience Specifically here;'

An Analysis, Careful, In Hundreds of Thousands
of Interactions Longitudinally For Decades It is; Gonna
Take More Than 'Gold Fish Attention Spans' to Read
my 'Research Paper', hehe...
It's Starts With An 'S For
Hope' And Ends With an L

for Love;

Clue:
SouL;

You Know 'Who'
Perhaps 'Faith'
of 'Oh (ou) You' too.

---

It really is hard to believe that anyone is arguing that being constantly marginalized, and constantly being told that what you are some kind of aberration, doesn’t necessarily result in an extra heap of internal pain and anguish that wouldn’t be there if the person was never attacked in that way.

As someone who watched a lot of children grow up, I could see just how deeply each rejection a child or youth received was felt. I saw the harm. This isn’t rocket science. When humans cannot live true to who they are, and be accepted as such, it causes pain. Arguing against that reality takes a special kind of insensitivity, IMHO.

Maybe studies trying to get at the exact manner and numbers have been flawed. But, even if we don’t know the full extent of the answer, we surely do know the answer.

Your idea of vilification is someone else's idea of using common sense though. There is resistance in adopting legislation because the trans community are often bullies themselves and show little restraint.

Some of the "progress" made by the more extreme trans campaigning is being undone. Like a growing backlash by sporting bodies leading to bans, laws being changed banning mixed toilets and so forth.

NICE, which are a generally well regarded medical organisation here already said the research into puberty blockers thus far was utterly inept.

I think a lot of research done relating to anything trans is poorly conducted and rushed in an attempt to quickly give some "facts".....any "facts" to baluster the trans movement and push forward their agenda.

I think many scientists are sympathetic to their cause and are willing to perform acts of gross misconduct to help.

I only accept sources from reliable bodies like the NHS, Oxford, Cambridge, NICE and some others outside the UK.

I'm quite familiar with the nuance since I've worked in hospitals and have a background in biomedical sciences/microbiology. Prominent Medical ethicists around the world use the USA and Ireland as case examples of otherwise advanced western nations that have retained archaic notions about a women's right to have an abortion to the extent that both countries have legislated that the rights of the fetus are considered more important than those of the mother.

The reasons are quite obvious that both the US and Ireland have influential religious institutions with undue power over the legislation resulting in hijacking of women's rights. I suggest (politely) that you redirect your cringing to your religious right in your country who have undue influence in the political legislature of your country which (in my view) contravenes the democratic imperative to seperate church and state.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ws/670539/

You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time. The GOP are trying to (to use Australian colloquialism) pull the wool over American's eyes.