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03 Oct 2018, 10:30 am

Everywhere was dangerous but some would be more dangerous than others. The Father of the American military was an openly gay man (he didn’t show signs out and about - but many knew it). Rumors persist that Lincoln was bisexual.

As said, just taking from seeing when each state progressed since it shows how much homophobia was needed to be overcome.

Today the Confederate states are the most dangerous to like the same sex - children getting kicked out onto the streets, conversion centers, very “religious” communities that view it as an abomination and the Union states as heathens for not viewing it as such and etc.

That’s not to say all in these areas are like this - many aren’t, just too many for comfort.

Spooky_Mulder
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03 Oct 2018, 10:41 am

The straight washing of history had covered this up for years:

The Revolutionary War Hero Who Was Openly Gay

Baron Friedrich von Steuben was known for his bravery and the discipline and grit he brought to the American troops.

https://www.history.com/news/openly-gay ... on-steuben

He is considered “the father of the American military.” Now if only this information was widely known when DADT was around.

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03 Oct 2018, 10:47 am

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

I think you are right but I also think it's a matter of small rural communities vs big cities. I'm sure that even up north and out west and in the midwest you have plenty of small religious towns who view homosexuality as an abomination but in bigger cities like New York and Los Angeles it's obviously much more accepted. But so are big cities in the south like Atlanta and New Orleans.

Most of the world is like that too when it comes to big cities vs small rural communities. But I do think most places in the south are more extreme when it comes to their religious beliefs and they are very judgemental. That's one of the reasons why I became an atheist. I hate zealots.

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03 Oct 2018, 10:51 am

Oh and I know a lot of people say Lizzie Borden was a lesbian but she was an axe murderer so maybe that's a bad example? :lol:

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Elizabeth Tudor was a lesbian and she did a lot of great things for England.

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03 Oct 2018, 10:53 am

The other distinction is rural and city. Mostly because cities are melting pots and because minorities flee from rural areas for a city or a more accepting community (it’s why San Francisco is lgbtq mecca, it’s where everyone went back in the 60s and 70s since (I believe) it was one of the, if not thee, only place that was truly - as much as it could be - safe).

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03 Oct 2018, 11:13 am

But back to racism, sometimes I feel like racism is actually worse up north than it is down here. The further north you travel the less black people you actually see in this country and I have met a few people from states like Montana and Illinois who are very racist towards black people.

I think because there are still many black people who live in the southern states it's like we are used to seeing them and we don't think of it as a big deal even though there are plenty of racist people here who hate them, but for some people in the northern and midwestern states I get the feeling that they would freak out from seeing a black person work behind a cash register or walk in front of their house. Like my racist neighbor from Montana who called the cops because my aunt brought her boyfriend to our house and he happened to be a black guy. :roll:

Edit: This neighbor of mine is also kind of nuts and she has cameras placed around her house and basically spies on everybody who drives or walks past her house. She also thinks all black people are criminals. I really can't stand her especially after insulting my uncle like that.

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03 Oct 2018, 12:24 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

You just did it again “all were Confederates” - no, they were not - look up “Southern Unionist” my friend. That right there is your legacy in the South and you’re undermining it. Back in the day if you still had the ideology that you do today you wouldn’t be a Confederate - you’d be a Southern Unionist. So people did know and they did fight the Confederate cause, if this wasn’t the case people like New Knight wouldn’t have existed. They did. These people are the heroes. Actually I’d reckon more heroic than many Unionists because they had more to lose and put a lot more at risk.

Well I guess they did lose a lot considering that our states were all but destroyed after the war.

Then I feel sorry for Southern Unionists, but never Confederates.

And do Confederates the exact same history as Nazis? No. The Nazis faced war trials for their crimes against humanity, their flag was outlawed and their ideology was banned. Today many African Americans are still stuck with the Confederate ideology being alive and well today. Whereas ‘Man In The High Castle’ is a fantasy that never happened - the Nazis did go away, Confederates can’t have the same treatment and call it “fantasy” since the ideology is still ruining many lives in the present era and today that ideology resides in the white house.

Maybe you're right. I know that personally I hate seeing the Confederate flag everywhere because while some Southerners view it only as a symbol of pride and heritage most of the time it does get turned into a symbol of racism. Most of the people I know who wear the flag or wave it around are racist and I can also understand the fact is that we did have slaves and a lot of black people have the right to be very offended by that. But I think most of them are offended by the racism in this country as a whole because you have plenty of racism that goes on up North too.

The us flag is the same then. Racist wave it around and wear it too, and some on the left says it repersents oppression and racism, the football plays refuse to stand for it. So does the Union Jack flag, it represents empire and oppression, slavery. As does Canada’s flag, frances, Germany, any western nations flag. Japan’s flag is one of a world conquering empire that killed thousands of millions, then there’s Russia’s flag. what about China’s flag?
All flags are horrible to someone m so should we just ban flags world wide?
Clearly the USA and western nations shouldn’t have a flag as any flag to others will represent opression and racism.

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03 Oct 2018, 12:32 pm

sly279 wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

Well I guess they did lose a lot considering that our states were all but destroyed after the war.

Is there any country on this planet that hasn't committed atrocities? Neither Americans nor any other country wave their country's flag in people's face as a way of rubbing in oppression but I get the feeling most people who wave around the Confederate flag do so just to rub it in the face of black people who hate the flag.

Spooky_Mulder had a point but I really don't understand your point.

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03 Oct 2018, 12:56 pm

The English St George Cross flag became somewhat toxic 3 or 4 decades ago due to what it was perceived to represent and some people became uncomfortable displaying it. Thankfully we are past that now.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:03 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:

I feel like racism is actually worse up north than it is down here.

Not at all. The North or the prominently Union states are the ones that are consistently fighting against racism and are consistently voting in favor for Civil Rights. This is largely why Southern Republicans look down on the Northern Democratic states - one of their key issues is the focus on diversity. Look at which states vote which way in matters of Civil Rights issues, there is a clear and observable divide between how the North views things and how the South does.

Also as a minority, I feel much safer in a Union state for this same very reason.

I'm someone who lived in the North, NY (not the city), and then moved to Florida. In my first 28 years of life, I never saw as much blatant racism as I did when I moved here. It was a noticeable night and day difference.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:17 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

I feel like racism is actually worse up north than it is down here.

I think it depends on which Northern states you are talking about. New York is different from places like Montana.

The way the states vote is different compared to the way that the states actually are in the real world. Just because the northern states vote in favor of equal rights that doesn't mean that racism isn't a big issue up there too. I have met some very racist people from up north.

And I am a minority too. I'm a racially mixed homosexual atheist with a mental illness and autism. But frankly I don't think I would feel comfortable living in a place like New York because I know I would get bullied just for having a southern accent and not understanding the difference in food culture.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:23 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:

Just because the northern states vote in favor of equal rights that doesn't mean that racism isn't a big issue up there too. I have met some very racist people from up north.

And I am a minority too. I'm a racially mixed homosexual atheist with a mental illness and autism. But frankly I don't think I would feel comfortable living in a place like New York because I know I would get bullied just for having a southern accent and not understanding the difference in food culture.

Racism is everywhere. I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying it's notably more prominent in the South and voting records and polls on political views consistently show that this is the case.

If you were white and had a deep Southern accent - probably.

Don't see any difference in food culture. If you mean barely any food on a plate, that's only really really high end NYC and LA restaurants.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:35 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

I do look mostly white but I am mixed believe it or not (I have Polynesian background on my Dad's side). Some people can tell right away and some can't.

One of my sister's friends from up north called me a hillbilly just because of my accent which really bugged me and I had a teacher in middle school from New Jersey who hated the south and was always talking bad about us and trying to say that we were the "bad guys" during the American Civil War.

And there IS a difference in food culture. Up north people don't seem to even know what grits are and they turn their noses up at the idea of eating fried catfish. Just like most people in the south have no idea what a "chocolate egg cream" is.

Americans mostly eat the same foods everywhere you go but there are some foods that are specific to certain places. Like the cajun food in Louisiana or soul food in Georgia.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:36 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

There were Northern Confederates:

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/did-an ... its.18628/

They were called Copperheads. New York was one of the leading states with Confederate sympathies.
A City Divided: New York and the Civil War

Quote:

While the Civil War pitted North against South, some locations confounded that stark regional split. New York was one of those places, a city of divided loyalties and complex class, racial, and economic interests. While most New Yorkers supported the war at its outset, significant forces urged conciliation with the Confederacy. From Wall Street financiers, to commercial shippers, to merchants selling manufactured goods to a South that produced little of its own, the New York City economy depended heavily on southern cotton. In response to the divisive Compromise of 1850, a group of merchants formed the Union Safety Committee, which pledged “to resist every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest.” During the war years, Mayor Fernando Wood, a “Peace Democrat,” led opposition to the war in the city, which grew as the wartime economy floundered and casualties mounted.

When the Civil War began in 1861, large numbers of New York City’s white workers did not embrace the fight to preserve the Union. Many resented the war effort, which brought economic hardship and increasing unemployment to working-class neighborhoods. Competition for jobs between Irish and black workers, already intense before the war, increased dramatically, and racial tensions mounted in work places and in working-class neighborhoods throughout the city. Among New Yorkers, African Americans and middle-class and wealthy Republicans tended to support abolition; most of the white working-class did not, fearing competition for jobs from thousands of newly emancipated slaves.

The National Conscription Act exacerbated long-simmering class tensions and the deprivations brought on by wartime inflation; it was especially unpopular among the city’s immigrant white working class. When it was enacted on July 11, 1863, it touched off the worst rioting Americans had ever seen. People and buildings representing Protestant missionaries, Republican draft officials, war production, wealthy businessmen, and African Americans suffered the worst of the crowds’ wrath, and after four days more than 119 New Yorkers were dead.

But wartime anxiety was not quite finished for New Yorkers. In October 1864, local Copperheads (northern Confederate sympathizers) met with Confederate secret agents to plan uprisings in several northern cities on the upcoming election day. That plan was quashed by federal troops, and the Copperheads, sensing that the Confederates were destined to lose the war, withdrew from the scheme. But Confederate agents proceeded with their plan, and on the night of November 25th, the conspirators set fires in ten downtown hotels and in the American Museum, Niblo’s Theater, and the Winter Garden. In each case the fires were quickly extinguished, and the culprits escaped to Canada. Only one of the conspirators, Robert Cobb Kennedy, was subsequently captured after re-entering the United States; he was later tried and executed.

I find the essay underplays a few things about the draft riots. Most other accounts of the draft riots says the death toll was 1000+. It was as much of an anti black pogrom as it was an anti draft protest. The rioters burned down an orphanage and if the children were not rescued by good samaritans they would have gladly massacred the black children. Lincoln had to deflect much needed troops to New York because the state leadership was sympathetic to the rioters.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

There were Northern Confederates:

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/did-an ... its.18628/

They were called Copperheads. New York was one of the leading states with Confederate sympathies.
A City Divided: New York and the Civil War

Quote:

That is horrible and that is why I hate everything about the American Civil War. It was a ****ed up war all around.

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03 Oct 2018, 1:57 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:

TW1ZTY wrote:

The progressive image of New York is misleading to a certain degree. Progressives get elected here because of the population dominence of New York City. Most counties in New York voted for Trump and the suburbs of New York are more segregated then most places in the South. You do not see and hear as much open racism as in the 70’s. I used to hear n****r, spic, fag etc come up in casual conversation plenty of times. Archie Bunker was a fictional charactor based on New Yorkers. Boston has had a progressive image for a long time yet when they tried busing to desegregate the schools in the 70’s there were two years of large scale boycotts, violent protests and racial attacks.

Has there been a real change in thinking over the past 40+ years or is is just muzzled by political correctness? Changing demographics argue for the former' Trump’s election and all that has ensued argues for the latter.

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