Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe God exists?

1) God is a being, that one can have a personal relationship. A person God.	30%	[ 55 ]
2) God is an impersonal force that guides reality as it is. He decrees our laws of physics, but does not intervene to break them.	12%	[ 22 ]
3) God does not exist. Reality can be explained by scientific inquiry and the scientific method in by itself.	33%	[ 61 ]
4) I am not sure. There is the possibility that God does exist, or does not. We must follow the preponderance of evidence when drawing our conclusion.	25%	[ 47 ]

Total votes : 185

zkydz
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12 Apr 2016, 10:02 am

AspE wrote:

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. Minds are not reliable.

I have a hard time believing this simply because you try to exclude anecdotal evidence (scriptures) but only rely on your own anecdotal evidence. You don't want to believe? No problem. But to say other people are wrong to believe is imposing your beliefs on others, in exactly the same way you say others are imposing their will and beliefs on you.

As for minds being unreliable; if that's the crux of your argument, then your argument is flawed since it is the construct of an unreliable mind. This of course applies to my arguments as well and thus rendering all threads and study invalid.

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zkydz
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12 Apr 2016, 10:03 am

AspE wrote:

Of course I'm happy if people do good things for whatever reason. But you admit that religion isn't necessary, so you are undermining a common argument in favor of it. The utility that it makes people better people.

Absolutely not. I am arguing that no side has the higher ground when it comes to morals. It undermines nothing that I have said.

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AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 10:05 am

zkydz wrote:

My personal beliefs are my personal beliefs. That is why I am not espousing one over the other as to do so would start to close off discussion from any perspective.

Do I take any scripture as to be literal? No. Too much of a common message in too many various beliefs to ignore.

Do I take science literal? No. Too many flip flops.

But, I do apply the same critical thinking to both issues.

You asked once how would know the difference between a god talking to a believer and just basic psychosis (I am paraphrasing here). I think the simple answer is this: The same way you know that that little voice in your head that says, "Nope, not a good idea," or, "I need to do this," is not bad in certain situations.

Knew a guy once who would see and hear little elves climb on his bed and berate him. He knew the difference. But only because he was taught. So, yeah, there are those who would not know until exposed to reality.

Thanks. You have shown that the delusion of god is only in your head. Just like intuition or conscience, or any other idea that pops up, which one can use if valuable or discard if nonsense.

Also you don't seem to understand how science works.

AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 10:07 am

zkydz wrote:

AspE wrote:

Absolutely not. I am arguing that no side has the higher ground when it comes to morals. It undermines nothing that I have said.

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I don't claim that atheism leads to superior morality. But if religion doesn't either, then that's a strike against a common religious claim. Religion isn't necessary to be moral, morality doesn't come from god.

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12 Apr 2016, 10:10 am

zkydz wrote:

AspE wrote:

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. Minds are not reliable.

I am not relying on my own anecdotal evidence. What makes you think that? I don't know you're wrong, but I have no reason so far to believe you are right.

Also, minds are unreliable, but that doesn't mean logic and reason are unreliable. These are the tools an unreliable mind uses to gain knowledge. Just like the scientific method was designed to eliminate, as much as possible, personal bias and the unreliability of perception.

zkydz
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12 Apr 2016, 10:16 am

AspE wrote:

Thanks. You have shown that the delusion of god is only in your head. Just like intuition or conscience, or any other idea that pops up, which one can use if valuable or discard if nonsense.

In this you are equating intuition and conscience as a delusion?

How do you know that intuition and conscience is not a god talking to you?

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AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 10:35 am

zkydz wrote:

AspE wrote:

Thanks. You have shown that the delusion of god is only in your head. Just like intuition or conscience, or any other idea that pops up, which one can use if valuable or discard if nonsense.

In this you are equating intuition and conscience as a delusion?

How do you know that intuition and conscience is not a god talking to you?

No, intuition and conscience are thoughts. Thoughts can be delusional or helpful. The premise that thoughts come from the brain is more parsimonious than that thoughts come from a god. My thoughts don't seem to give me any knowledge that a natural process of learning wouldn't provide. If I suddenly had a thought about how to do brain surgery, or build a faster than light drive, I would re-evaluate my assessment.

zkydz
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12 Apr 2016, 10:46 am

AspE wrote:

My thoughts don't seem to give me any knowledge that a natural process of learning wouldn't provide.

That is only saying that if you don't see it, you don't believe it.

AspE wrote:

If I suddenly had a thought about how to do brain surgery, or build a faster than light drive, I would re-evaluate my assessment.

Yeah....that's never how any miracle or prophesy has ever been described.

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Roadfury
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12 Apr 2016, 10:47 am

I use too but as go to church I see most people not don'nt what in bible and so I don"t want to be like them hurting other people

zkydz
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12 Apr 2016, 11:05 am

Roadfury wrote:

I use too but as go to church I see most people not don'nt what in bible and so I don"t want to be like them hurting other people

And, that is a good thought to have.

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AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 12:41 pm

zkydz wrote:

How do you know that intuition and conscience is not a god talking to you?

That's what I'm wondering. How do you know it is?

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12 Apr 2016, 12:43 pm

zkydz wrote:

AspE wrote:

My thoughts don't seem to give me any knowledge that a natural process of learning wouldn't provide.

That is only saying that if you don't see it, you don't believe it.

I believe many things I can't see.

zkydz wrote:

AspE wrote:

If I suddenly had a thought about how to do brain surgery, or build a faster than light drive, I would re-evaluate my assessment.

Yeah....that's never how any miracle or prophesy has ever been described.

Right, because the perception of a miracle is due to biased interpretation, sprinkled with a large amount of gullibility. Basically, they want to believe in the first place, so people dismiss alternative rational explanations in favor of the explanation they wish to be true.

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12 Apr 2016, 1:23 pm

Roadfury wrote:

I use too but as go to church I see most people not don'nt what in bible and so I don"t want to be like them hurting other people

A lot of people say this and I use to have this same cowardly excuse.

Why not instead choose to follow God and not hurt people. Study the Scriptures and ask for Jesus's help in living it out. You don't have to be a hypocrite. You can set the example for others.

If everyone decided to stop driving because they were afraid of hurting people, well you can imagine how that would be.

I recommend reading and meditating on Matthew 25:14-30.

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AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 1:44 pm

Or you could not follow holy books and also not hurt people. It's easy, I do it every day. Holy books often teach hate, like hatred of homosexuals and non believers. Atheism has no such rules.

andrethemoogle
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12 Apr 2016, 1:48 pm

Or in my case, you can be an open-minded Catholic without going to Church. Then again, I have massive anxiety and sensory issues so that's why I don't go.

AspE
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12 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm

zkydz wrote:

...Yeah....that's never how any miracle or prophesy has ever been described.

Right, because that would be actual evidence. Notice how all prophesies are vague enough to apply to many different situations? How miracles and cures suddenly stopped happening when we all got cameras?

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