Do you believe in God?

Post Reply New Topic

So what specifically is teaching hatred against homosexuals? Let's tackle this issue head on. Because I already know what people try to point to in order to support that argument.

Men are the ones who teach and maintain hatred, and twist Scriptures to their own destruction and the destruction of others.

The Bible. It's pretty damn clear about hating it, no twisting required. The scriptures are full of horrible things, portrayed as a moral good, they are bad enough by themselves, don't blame people for misinterpreting. Also witchcraft, shellfish, and eating pork. But people only seem to insist on the gay thing nowadays.

I didn't ask for another rant. What writings specifically are you referring to on hating homosexuals?

Oh, as a side note, under the new covenant of grace, Jesus declared all foods clean, on more than one occasion. However, shellfish tastes disgusting to me. I like bacon though.

Leviticus. But I'd rather talk about why theists think God exists.

So you want to back out now? Alrighty. Well, I can tell you that you're wrong, and missing a proper literary and historical view of Jewish Scripture... let alone interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

You are also neglecting the Christian New Testament understanding altogether with the work and ministry of Jesus Christ. But I won't force anything on you. You are welcome to remain in ignorance, just like the hate mongers who twist Scripture to justify their own sinful hatred against their neighbor.

Also, if this is any reflection on how you approach science and logic, then I find no validity in your words.

However, I do work for Burger King on Saturdays part time, so "have it your way".

Tootaloo

I was raised in the Old Testament and now a Christian.

I had to look up the word Theist. I had heard it but wasn't sure it's meaning.

May mysteries be revealed to those that are seeking.

me
"Reader and Righter"

Indeed!

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
Proverbs 25:2 NIV

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13 NIV

You're the one backing out of a frank discussion of your beliefs.

Jesus also said he didn't come to overturn any old testament law. But go ahead and think me ignorant if it makes you feel better.

Yes.

Not a - nor....but to fulfill them.

Love and prayers
is how I sign my cards.

Honestly, it does not make me feel better that you choose ignorance. It is actually stressful and disheartening to watch you rant on about something you have no understanding about. And I was also disappointed I got the impression you did not want to hear my input or would even listen at all. There were some things I indeed wanted to share.

I'm getting some mixed messages though. Are you then saying you want to discuss the matter?

If that is the case, then please cite specific references. Saying, "Leviticus" is not good enough. Is our too much effort to look up an actual scripture on http://www.Biblegateway.com and copy and paste the source reference here?

A discussion can still be frank with actual references. Thank you.

I really don't care to hear your rationalizations about how Christianity doesn't call homosexuality an abomination, and how liberal Christians are able to interpret it differently. The central question is, if there isn't a god, why take any of it seriously?

The fact is, if the Bible is the word of God, then God clearly said gays should be put to death, if only at some point in the past. (Leviticus 20:13, as if you didn't know) And that makes him evil. But perhaps that's not the God you believe in.

The Bible (as well as all of the other "holy texts") is human made from front to back. The Bible of the Jewish and Christian religion was primarily written by late bronze age, early iron age dudes who believed the world was flat, that the sun went around the earth and who did not know every material thing on Earth is made of atoms. God had nothing to do with the holy texts.

I agree. So where does your conception of God come from?

#1. You're in luck, because that is totally not what I was going to respond with at all. I never said that "Christianity doesn't call homosexuality an abomination". I am instead supporting the truth that Biblical Christianity does not support hatred against homosexuals. (which I will get into a little later)

#2. Obviously, if there isn't a God, then there is no reason to take it seriously. Simple logic. But since I do believe in God, I obviously do not support such a presupposition on the merit of my faith.


#3. Thank you for finally citing a reference. Of course I did know about it, but I wanted you to actually make the effort to give tangible sources. It makes for better discussion to have these things up front on the table. You forgot to mention Leviticus 18:22. Here's another scripture that may have slipped through your radar:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Ah, but wait, let's take a look at that underlined text there. This New Testament Scripture shows that some of the earliest Christians were homosexuals before they became Christians. Why would homosexuals become Christians if Christians were bullying them? It is also viewed in the same light as greed, drunkenness, thievery, and slandering... which would mean most of the world is in trouble now.

#4. No, it does not make God evil, if God is the moral standard of all creation and existence. Because if God sets the standard for how we should live, and we fail to live up to it, then WE are the wrongdoers. You have it backwards. If there is a God, morality comes from Him, and not from mankind.

Furthermore, let's not forget that blasphemy (Lev. 24:16) and cursing mother and father (Lev. 20:9) were also punishable by death in ancient Israel under Mosaic Levitical law. In this case, you and I both could rightfully be stoned to death if caught doing that during that time in history. To this day, I despise these sins I committed.

#5. Also, I am a former transsexual. Many years ago, I chose to give up that portion of my life after hearing from God. He gave me the grace and ability to do so. To this day I acknowledge God's righteous judgment against my own sins. I accept that under Levitical law, my former lifestyle was abominable. For many reasons other than that even, I could have been pelted to death with stones. However, through Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross, I am forgiven, and my past life is behind me.

Because of all this, I know that God actually loves homosexuals and transsexuals and longs for them to turn to Him and follow Jesus.

I fell in love with God. I love God, as my Father, I love Jesus, I love the Holy Spirit and His work inside me to cleanse me from all my sin and unrighteousness so that I can be made ready to be in His presence forever. This also causes me to love other people; sometimes so greatly and intensely (even to the point of tears). I know that God can do for other gay and trans people, the same He did for me. This is also how and why I love my gay friends and joyfully serve them as much as others.

We are living in the age of grace, and not under the old law, but a new one through Christ. Grace teaches us to say "no" to our sin:

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

I welcome all homosexual and transsexual people to join me hand in hand to joyfully live out this scripture.

Also, more references to consider:

Matthew 5: 17-18 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

AspE, I know that you will most likely trample over everything I say here, and I expect a negative, reviling response.

However, this is more for the benefit of everyone else reading, and to set the record straight.

Wait, what, you're thinking homosexuality can be prayed away? Sorry, that is not acceptance by any means.

Also, if you are trans, sorry, you're trans. You are not a "former" transgender individual. It's not something you choose like religion. Being trans is not a sin, much like being gay isn't.

My brother is gay and I'm sure as hell that he doesn't pray to not be gay.

It's funny, I used to believe that same thing. This is what the world and modern psychology teaches. But Scripture teaches otherwise:

Romans 12:1-2 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

The Holy Spirit can change our hearts and minds with the same power that Jesus used to perform all those miracles. Keep in mind that there was struggle and suffering involved, but for a relatively short while. This is also in line with Scripture:

1 Peter 4:1 - Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

I chose to suffer against my transgender/transsexual desires, and God helped give me the grace and power to be free of it. I now live happily as a celibate biological male. And it's been about 14 years since. If you want, you can ask my own mother about this, or my little brother. They know.


It was not God's will for my life.


Most gay people don't. But I will keep both you and your brother in prayer.