The Conservatives Thread

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Actually, all the world could learn a lot from emulating aspects of Singapore. Not necessarily all aspects of laws given the canings, but Singapore has some very successful programs in place, and I've heard it lauded for it's healthcare system.

Not only that, but libertarianism is not really that conservative in any meaningful sense of the word, but it worships capitalism more than any conservative ever could do.

Also, more places to shop than any city in America.

So, how does one distinguish between "Libertarian" and "Conservative?"

Other than Libertarians are in favour of free love and homosexuality, and some Conservatives might not be.

Libertarians favor more social freedom, such as for free love and homosexuality.
Libertarians are more skeptical of an interventionist foreign policy and large national defense.
Libertarians are less traditional, and can be very anti-traditional.
Libertarians are just different.

I mean, if you look at the Republicans, there are a few different issues to them:
1) Promoting conservative social causes(which libertarians don't like, other than their own internal debate on abortion)
2) Promoting the US military and the use of military force. (which libertarians don't like in general)
3) Promoting business, which libertarians often distrust.
4) Promoting free-markets which libertarians are wholly in favor of.
5) Reducing the size of government, which libertarians are wholly in favor of.

Now, this basically boils down to libertarians being somewhat conservative, but not wholly so and having very significant differences.

If you think that libertarians and conservatives are the same, then you haven't met a lot of people on the religious right. (I know a few, one actually wants to have a Christian political party that will dismiss the Republican business issues to be wholly concerned with "Christian" policies) And you have to recognize that the average conservative has enough ideals in common with that religious right to consider tolerating these people a good idea.

Well, the Libertarians typically join forces with the Republicans, don't they?

There seems to be a conflict in your observations: Libertarians distrust business, but want free markets. If you distrust business, then wouldn't you favour more government control over business?

Well, it is a 2 party system, pandabear. They could only join the Republicans or the Democrats, but they have a third party, just one that could not get elected.

You misinterpreted me. "Promoting business" and "business" are two different things. One is creating a set of policies that favor business-owners, and the other is a group of institutions. One can like the institutions while still being skeptical to government plans to promote these institutions, and the latter is the real question, not the former. Libertarians tend to strongly like businesses, just like Republicans, sometimes they might romanticize small businesses, but then again, so can Republicans.

Actually, all the world could learn a lot from emulating aspects of Singapore. Not necessarily all aspects of laws given the canings, but Singapore has some very successful programs in place, and I've heard it lauded for it's healthcare system.[/quote]

The canings act as nasty deterrent. Yeah, this leads to 'maintaining of social order'. As for the healthcare system (and the same applies to the higher education programs and public housing scheme), I think it's fiscally prudent. To pay off healthcare bills, Singaporeans have to pay by themselves through a compulsory savings scheme.

It's fiscal conservatism.

It might actually act as an incentive, for those who have a caning fetish.

In the Southern states, school children are frequently punished with floggings, also.

I'm from a Southern state. I'm not sure that the practice of paddling is the same as flogging exactly. My understanding is that flogging is technically done with a stick/cane or a whip, in which case we don't do that. Paddling with a flat board smarts for a minute or so but leaves no lasting mark nor any injury. It's not even really that painful--more humiliating than anything else.

I used to teach at a school where paddling was commonplace. I personally would not paddle a child for several reasons: I didn't have kids of my own at the time, nor did I feel that I could safely gauge how much force was appropriate for the punishment. Also, back then, the school didn't have a uniform policy. The kind of underwear and jeans those kids were wearing was too thick for paddling to be effective.

Ordinarily it isn't a cruel punishment, though I'm concerned that it's too swift and too easy for the child. Three pops and you go back to doing whatever it was you got in trouble over in the first place.

Capitalism and conservatism don't go hand in hand though. In fact, capitalism used to be the idea of the classical liberals, and the conservatives opposed it.

Yeah.... liberals can be very different than socialists and communists.

Finally, your claim is historically false, and frankly, there is nothing by the title of conservatism that demands a capitalist system. In some sense, capitalism is actually in tension with conservatism because capitalists don't mind disrupting the status quo and would sell porn if it made a profit even though conservatives dislike such things. That being said, there are different variants of conservatism that have no connection to capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conservatism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditiona ... nservatism
Religious fundamentalism and how they are considered "conservatives" and so on.

I kind of doubt the truth of this, given that I think most schools are too worried about legal issues to get involved with that kind of behavior.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0EfM5f3io[/youtube]

Southerners can be rather violent and brutish. Look at what they did to their slaves, too.

Modern conservatives will be wagging their fingers at you.

Umm..... that wasn't really so "violent and brutish", and it doesn't even come close to justifying your statement.

Also, southerners haven't had slaves in a long time, and the migration of people has occurred in that time period to some extent as well.


It depends which ones. I've already said that I have had experience with conservatives who are relatively indifferent to the market.

lol pandabear.

The girl in that video got off EASY.

Most of the time there really isn't a "choice." That's the first time I've ever heard of a student getting three days to "think about it."

Just for clarification, they're obviously doing certain things a certain way because they know it's televised. For example, it's extremely rare for students and faculty to be alone in the same room. The only reason the door was closed was because of the camera since a lot of people would have been offended to actually witness a paddling. Also, there is typically at least one other faculty there to witness the paddling to be sure that nothing horribly abusive is happening.

That school seems to be a more upscale environment than the typical southern public school environment. The last time I taught in a public school, I had a lot of the bigger, athlete types get up in my face trying to intimidate me, just to see what I'd do. I'd stand toe-to-toe with these guys until they walked away from me--and I'm not really a tough guy! It's more about winning the respect of the "tough kids" rather than trying to prove something. But also, a lot of the kids I taught had really tough home and street lives, too. For a lot of them, the only communication they understand is tough talk and physical punishment. It doesn't make for a great learning environment, and after a while the kids start to look at getting a paddling more as sport. You learn to pick your battles carefully and find creative ways to get to them.

It's interesting to me that she opted in favor of the paddling. In tougher circumstances, it loses its effectiveness. It's obvious that school in the video doesn't really have that many "real" problems if paddling is an "option" and the student has three days to "think about it," all due to excessive tardiness!