Is it anti-semetic....

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The occupied territories are not part of Israel, and most reasonable sources on both sides see the West Bank and Gaza becoming independent.

The problem is, of course, empowering those reasonable sources.

Why, precistely the same right to exist that other partitioned states had: Eire, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India. And the same right to self-determination that other populations have.

The UN Partition Plan would have created two states, recognizing Jewish and Arab majorities where they were at the time of partition. Unlike India and Pakistan (who have their own history of skirmishes, I grant you), one side chose not to take the deal, and to immediately launch a war of aggression.

Partition is not perfect, I grant you. But like democracy, for all its flaws, it's a better idea than anyone else has come up with.

You name states that already existed and had populations already in place. Israel was a creation of force through immigration and policies that put Arabs on the losing sides of ventures. It was a territory created through external force more than it was a state created from a pre-existing large population. While there was certainly a population at the time and a small, steadily building number of immigrants, it wasn't a large deluge until after the point of creation by an external government.




This is something I don't get. It may just be because it's more of a melting pot here and there aren't really "other populations"...but I really don't understand this point.

It is a false equation to say that zionism = Judaism, and it is a false equation to say that anti-zionism (at least as zionism is most often displayed currently) = anti-Israel. I personally think if zionism as the philosophy that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land that was called 'Palestine' before the 2nd WW, as opposed to the idea that Israel has a right to exist at all; claiming justification from God is license to commit pretty much any atrocity, from shooting at hospitals, to embargoing cement to repair the hospitals, to shooting aid workers for defending the ships bringing cement to Gaza against the embargo.

The simple fact of the matter is that Israel has a right to exist, but by having a Bush II-like government, it only pisses the rest of the world off and only invites blow-back and hatred in a region that is already difficult. Hungary, up until a few weeks ago, was one of Israel's only *allies* in the region; they might have been turned into another enemy by the Right-wing 'we can do whatever we want with no consequences because we have American support' party.

Then there's the fact that the ultra-orthodox are doing everything they possibly can to turn Israel into a theocracy that is just as oppressive as any sharia-run state.

My mother's best friend is Jewish; my first sweetheart was Jewish; my first lover was Israeli; my sister-in-law (whose house I currently am in) is Jewish; my niece, who will also be my heir, will be raised Jewish. I am neither anti-semitic nor anti-Israel, but I sure as hell am anti-zionist.

Not even that which was inherent in the Koran ever since its compilation, circa the 7th century AD, which also says that even though Christians will say they aren't Jewish that they still are the same and are thus equally infidels and pigs? Are you certain that there was no anti-Jewish nor anti-Christian sentiment in the Muslim world prior to the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel?

Give credit where it's due; Bush.2 took the idea from the Zionists.

There's also the fact that xians and jews had to pay taxes for being xians and jews, even in the relatively tolerant areas of the Islamic world.

Zionism is the nationalistic movement of the Jews, it has nothing to do with God given right as the movement originated with the Haskala Jews who were secular and very modern ,social oriented folks and the people who created the state of Israel were mostly secular( I was born in Israel and never saw a synagogue from the inside and know very little about religion)
The ultra-orthodox are Anti Zionists and as such doesn't recognize or accept the existence of the state of Israel( they feel we should wait for the messiah).

Zionism is no more or less than the idea that Jews are entitled for a state and national identity of their own,
As to how to express this idea and materialize it opinions differs very widely both within Israel and outside the same as it does(or at least it it should) in any democratic country,
People links Anti Zionism to anti antisemitism because any blunder or wrong done by the state of Israel immediately raise an international choir of voices questioning it right to exists
and since for some mysterious or not so mysterious reason this question never rises at any other case,even at cases much worse than the one the state of Israel is involved with,people have some basis for being a bit suspicious.
It's like existing in a world were every bad thing u do,big or little, raise the possibility of death sentence and since this attitude is pointed exclusively toward Israel it's very easy or at least understandable why sometimes it is very hard to differentiate between legitimate and needed criticism and the long time hatred for the Jews that's is so ingrained in the western culture.
for instance,
There are many other viable explanations to shooting at hospitals, or embargoing cement to repair the hospitals, or shooting "aid workers" for defending the ships bringing cement to Gaza against the embargo, choosing "justification from God" as the sole reason for such actions makes u an antisemite.
Also,when i read post that defy any sane reasoning and are willing to go to any length to portray Israel as the worst state in the world or the source of most of it's trouble or as the ultimate symbol for the unjust and cruel nature of this world i suspect the poster of having less than honest motives/

BTW
Anti-Zionism = antisemitism because Zionism = the right of the Jews for national identity and there no reason to deny the Jews this basic right except antisemitism,
Even Helen Thomas knows that.

Last edited by nara44 on 07 Jun 2010, 4:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

The Jews are the source of all evil in this world
the unbelievably stupid Bush and the majority of Yankees that voted him to power are not to blame
I's the Zionists that poisoned his pure, clean, white american mind with their ugly schemes.

If you directed an equally vicious and untrue calumny against black folk you would have been booted off this board. I guess it is o.k. to insult Jews here.

ruveyn
]

Excuse me..., but are you just being sarcastic? I'd hate to think you're actually serious.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The continual attempt of Zionists of the right to speak for all Jews id merely a ploy to smear everyone who objects to Israeli policies as antisemitic. It is a blatant lie and should be so recognized.
The so called right of Jews to have their own nation would imply that any religious group or organization also has that right. How long will it be before the Mormons or the Scientologists put out their claim to national independence? The fact that the Jews did have a nation thousands of years ago is not relevant.

Given the context of Nara's previous post, I think it's pretty clear that Nara is, indeed, being sarcastic.

Of course i was(If would look at the details under my avatar u would see i m from Israel)

Not what I'm saying but way to try and milk it for all it's worth. Too bad it really isn't worth anything other than a slight joke about that Israel and its policies have been around much longer than Bush has been on the international scene. But I guess when you gotta milk every single little bit of victimhood out of any solitary statement, you got some work ahead of you.