Jaythefordman wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Jaythefordman wrote:
Nice try, but this is a fallacy. Many self made millionaires came from impoverished backgrounds, and many had mental and physical issues to overcome. All had the drive to overcome and make themselves, and this is the overriding defining factor of the sef made man. Its the drive that makes the difference, and makes the man. The circumstances of life have nothing to do with how far you go, its what you CHOOSE to do with it that count.
Nice try, but this is a fallacy of generalization. You assume that because a subset of poor and disadvantaged are able to overcome their circumstances that ALL in those circumstances can also overcome them. Perhaps you should cite some statistical studies that would bolster your position.
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/releva ... k-analogy/http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presum ... alisation/Yes, that is precisely what I am saying, and I can guarantee you that anyone with the drive to do so will drag themselves out. Prime example, and read about this in in the book "Freakonomics", is the apparent 'disadvantaged' black person. The author made a very deep analysis of statistics surrounding blacks, education, and socioeconomics trying to find the defining reason for it. Guess what, it wasn't disadvantaged circumstances keeping them back, its was social 'peer' pressure that dragged otherwise bright people down.
Your positions assumes that all things being equal, everyone can be as successful as Bill Gates. This is ludicrous. First, Things are NEVER equal, whether in innate abilities, circumstance or opportunity, EACH of us a unique individual.. Second, there is not enough room in the economic system for 6 billion Bill Gates.
Freakonomis? Which peer reviewed journal was that in?
Social peer pressure? What a revelation. So the social peer pressure in a upper middle class suburban environment to be 'successful' has nothing to do with the trajectories of people's lives? How is it surprising that people tend towards group behavior? What is unusual are those that deny the impulse to follow the group and strike out on their own.
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My point is, its in the brain. unless you are crippled, or psychologically handicapped, there is little reason not to be able to get somewhere.
So where do you draw the lines between crippled and not crippled? Psychologically handicapped and not? You again disregard individual differences.
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I will also drag up the statistics on wealthy people for you. Got somethat reinforce the idea that most wealthy people are there despite often poor circumstances early in life.
I'm waiting. Care to share them or are they secret?
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Every wealthy person I have met, and thats a few, have come from surprisingly humble circumstances, and more than a few have had to overcome disabilities like dyslexia and learning issues.
You use anecdotal evidence as statistical proof? Fantastic. Since you seem to put weight in anecdotes, here's one.
My daughter is studying learning disabilities in college. She recently took an internship in an inner city school Quite a change in environment since she came from a rural school and now she is one of a handful of white people there. This is a typical, high poverty, low resource school system. Her observation? That the first graders that she is working with are ALREADY hard and guarded. I'm wondering how peer pressure under the threat of gang violence might affected ones life differently than the peer pressures typical of a well resourced suburban school.
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Perhaps your assumptions that circumstances dictate outcome would need a rethink.
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Perhaps you need to rethink your assumptions about my assumptions. I challenged your reasoning. How have you discerned my positions from that? Are you assuming that because I find flaws in your argument that I must not agree with you? Maybe I simply dislike shoddy reasoning.
And perhaps you can explain how circumstances DON'T dictate outcomes. Two identical twins, separated at birth, will invariably never have the SAME outcome. Often, they will follow eerily similar trajectories, but they are never identical. If identical twins, the most alike among us, cannot replicate each others outcome, how can mere singletons do so?
04 Oct 2010, 4:27 am
