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Ultraconservatives pretend homophobia/racism doesn't exist

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Which minority groups do ultraconservatives hate the most?
Gays & Lesbians 21%  21%  [ 10 ]
African Americans 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
The Poor 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
Hispanic Immigrants 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Interracial Same-Sex Couples 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Atheists 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
Non-Christian Religionists 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Other Minority Group 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
All of the Above 44%  44%  [ 21 ]
Total votes : 48

John_Browning
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27 Oct 2010, 1:11 am

Orwell, I will get back to you tomorrow. I took my seroquel earlier than usual and I'm nodding off.


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27 Oct 2010, 10:05 am

Orwell wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I continue to have a real problem is the fallacy that because a majority of racists identify as conservative, an assertion that I'm willing to entertain, that a majority of conservatives therefore must be racists. That's a textbook logical fallacy, one that I think certain poster's own ideological sympathies and or general antipathy towards conservatism have blinded them to.

I don't think MP has ever claimed that. The claim was that racism is more common among conservatives than among other groups, and in particular that racism is much more common than conservatives like to believe.

It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist? It's not a race issue at all. Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.



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27 Oct 2010, 12:06 pm

Bataar wrote:
It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist?

That one is somewhat ambiguous, but the birther movement is largely racially driven.

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Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.

I concur. Racially-based affirmative action is very misguided policy.

Racial quota were ruled unconstitutional decades ago, and no one uses them anymore.


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27 Oct 2010, 12:09 pm

[quote="Orwell]That one is somewhat ambiguous, but the birther movement is largely racially driven.[/quote]
Do you have any evidence to back that up? I've heard many arguments the birthers use and none of them are based on race. Every argument I have heard could be applied to any person regardless of race.



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27 Oct 2010, 12:16 pm

Bataar wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I continue to have a real problem is the fallacy that because a majority of racists identify as conservative, an assertion that I'm willing to entertain, that a majority of conservatives therefore must be racists. That's a textbook logical fallacy, one that I think certain poster's own ideological sympathies and or general antipathy towards conservatism have blinded them to.

I don't think MP has ever claimed that. The claim was that racism is more common among conservatives than among other groups, and in particular that racism is much more common than conservatives like to believe.

It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist? It's not a race issue at all. Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.

It's a xenophobia issue. Not born in this country = "not one of us". Also, the whole issue wouldn't have even come up if his father's side of the family had immigrated from some European country rather than an African country. It's not liberals fault that a lot of conservatives aren't self-aware enough to recognize their prejudice.



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27 Oct 2010, 1:46 pm

marshall wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I continue to have a real problem is the fallacy that because a majority of racists identify as conservative, an assertion that I'm willing to entertain, that a majority of conservatives therefore must be racists. That's a textbook logical fallacy, one that I think certain poster's own ideological sympathies and or general antipathy towards conservatism have blinded them to.

I don't think MP has ever claimed that. The claim was that racism is more common among conservatives than among other groups, and in particular that racism is much more common than conservatives like to believe.

It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist? It's not a race issue at all. Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.

It's a xenophobia issue. Not born in this country = "not one of us". Also, the whole issue wouldn't have even come up if his father's side of the family had immigrated from some European country rather than an African country. It's not liberals fault that a lot of conservatives aren't self-aware enough to recognize their prejudice.

It's not a xenophobia issue, but a legal issue. Not born in this country = not able to be president. There is evidence that, at the very least, there are complications around his birth. The same would hold true for a person of any race who was running for or had become president. Are you going to tell me that if there were any questions or any reasonable claims that could have been made to say President Bush wasn't born in this country, that liberals wouldn't have been all over those?



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27 Oct 2010, 2:03 pm

Obamaphobia topic

I have no idea why these problems with B. Obama's citizenship exist. Just ridiculous.

President Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961. His mother was an American citizen at the time of his birth. Hawaii has been a US state since 1959. Do the math.

Of course no one has ever seen his birth certificate, his passport, and other ID that he needed not only to live and work in the continental US, but to run for public office. :roll:


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27 Oct 2010, 2:07 pm

sartresue wrote:
Obamaphobia topic

I have no idea why these problems with B. Obama's citizenship exist. Just ridiculous.

President Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961. His mother was an American citizen at the time of his birth. Hawaii has been a US state since 1959. Do the math.

Of course no one has ever seen his birth certificate, his passport, and other ID that he needed not only to live and work in the continental US, but to run for public office. :roll:


Thank you!! !

What is with this rumor that he was born in Kenya? I can't believe the lies most of the ultra right seem to believe. Albeit I don't think he's a good president but I don't see how any president has much control over the congress made of lobbyists.


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27 Oct 2010, 2:11 pm

marshall wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I continue to have a real problem is the fallacy that because a majority of racists identify as conservative, an assertion that I'm willing to entertain, that a majority of conservatives therefore must be racists. That's a textbook logical fallacy, one that I think certain poster's own ideological sympathies and or general antipathy towards conservatism have blinded them to.

I don't think MP has ever claimed that. The claim was that racism is more common among conservatives than among other groups, and in particular that racism is much more common than conservatives like to believe.

It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist? It's not a race issue at all. Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.

It's a xenophobia issue. Not born in this country = "not one of us". Also, the whole issue wouldn't have even come up if his father's side of the family had immigrated from some European country rather than an African country. It's not liberals fault that a lot of conservatives aren't self-aware enough to recognize their prejudice.


<.< france.

Also i find your remark about xenophobia odd considering you have to be born in America to be a president the whole concept is kind of xenophobic but really not since it would be odd to have a foreign president. Also to accuse your opponents(I'm using this because I'm too lazy to think of something better) of being racist even though they don't think their racist is rude especially when you don't back up your statements with anything. It also won't result in anything good if you can't provide evidence that might make the person/s your addressing see how their argument is racist and reconsider.



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27 Oct 2010, 3:01 pm

the whole 'birther' thing is racist b/c of where it comes from, not the content of the legal claims that it makes, and also b/c of the refusal of it adherents to accept the evidence that they're presented with.

There are a lot of people out there who don't think that a black man can legitimately be president and legitimately have authority over them, and this 'controversy' is how they make that feeling of illegitimacy seem reasonable. They wanted a copy of his birth certificate, he showed a copy of his birth certificate. Then, no - that wasn't good enough. It had to be an *embossed* copy of his birth certificate - so he showed his embossed birth certificate to factcheck.org and some tv news people. Then, no - that wasn't good enough. It has to be a *long-form* birth certificate with baby footprints on it. Etc.

It makes me chuckle a little, because although I was born right here in California, I wouldn't be able to prove to a birther that I was born in America b/c I was adopted by my Dad and the original record is sealed. Oh noes! I must be a socialist muslim furriner, and I didn't even know it!

There's also microfiche of the birth announcement in the Honolulu news paper and a plethora of other avenues of evidence, none of which (of course) is acceptable to a birther because Obama MUST be illegitimate in their minds.



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27 Oct 2010, 4:14 pm

LKL wrote:
the whole 'birther' thing is racist b/c of where it comes from, not the content of the legal claims that it makes, and also b/c of the refusal of it adherents to accept the evidence that they're presented with.

There are a lot of people out there who don't think that a black man can legitimately be president and legitimately have authority over them, and this 'controversy' is how they make that feeling of illegitimacy seem reasonable. They wanted a copy of his birth certificate, he showed a copy of his birth certificate. Then, no - that wasn't good enough. It had to be an *embossed* copy of his birth certificate - so he showed his embossed birth certificate to factcheck.org and some tv news people. Then, no - that wasn't good enough. It has to be a *long-form* birth certificate with baby footprints on it. Etc.

It makes me chuckle a little, because although I was born right here in California, I wouldn't be able to prove to a birther that I was born in America b/c I was adopted by my Dad and the original record is sealed. Oh noes! I must be a socialist muslim furriner, and I didn't even know it!

There's also microfiche of the birth announcement in the Honolulu news paper and a plethora of other avenues of evidence, none of which (of course) is acceptable to a birther because Obama MUST be illegitimate in their minds.

There are conspiracy theorists out there for everything. There are idiots out there who believe the 9/11 attacks were an inside job. If there are idiots out there who believe that, it's even easier to believe there are idiots who believe Obama's birth certificate, the one he showed, is fake or doesn't have the correct watermark or whatever they claim. However, it's not a racial issue. No where in their arguments is race even mentioned. They're doing it because they believe it's a tool to get a president who is very bad for our country out of office. Like I said, if a similar argument/case could have been made against Bush, the same thing would have happened, only the media would be backing the conspiracy nuts in that case. The only people who bring race up are the liberals. Yes, it's a stupid conspiracy theory, but race has nothing to do with it.



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27 Oct 2010, 8:57 pm

Bataar wrote:
marshall wrote:
It's a xenophobia issue. Not born in this country = "not one of us". Also, the whole issue wouldn't have even come up if his father's side of the family had immigrated from some European country rather than an African country. It's not liberals fault that a lot of conservatives aren't self-aware enough to recognize their prejudice.

It's not a xenophobia issue, but a legal issue. Not born in this country = not able to be president. There is evidence that, at the very least, there are complications around his birth. The same would hold true for a person of any race who was running for or had become president. Are you going to tell me that if there were any questions or any reasonable claims that could have been made to say President Bush wasn't born in this country, that liberals wouldn't have been all over those?

Since when are any of the 'birther' claims reasonable? Also, if these people aren't xenophobic why don't they drop it once they're proven wrong? It seems like they're not motivated by facts or reason but by xenophobic paranoia and suspicions. It's also really insulting for these people to keep LYING and spreading FALSE rumors. It's like they're trying to slander the president by repeating this crap over and over again. They want to paint him as a "foreign born muslim" just to scare people. They're as bad as holocaust deniers.



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27 Oct 2010, 9:10 pm

ikorack wrote:
marshall wrote:
Bataar wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I continue to have a real problem is the fallacy that because a majority of racists identify as conservative, an assertion that I'm willing to entertain, that a majority of conservatives therefore must be racists. That's a textbook logical fallacy, one that I think certain poster's own ideological sympathies and or general antipathy towards conservatism have blinded them to.

I don't think MP has ever claimed that. The claim was that racism is more common among conservatives than among other groups, and in particular that racism is much more common than conservatives like to believe.

It might appear that way, but I would argue differently. Firstly, you have people like MP who believe that it is racist for someone to believe Obama wasn't born in this country. I believe he was born in Hawaii so this doesn't affect me at all, but if someone believes differently, how does that make them racist? It's not a race issue at all. Secondly, I believe that anyone who wants to use race to make a decision is racist. Therefore anyone who supports programs likes affirmative action, racial quotas, most of whom are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, are supporting racist ideas.

It's a xenophobia issue. Not born in this country = "not one of us". Also, the whole issue wouldn't have even come up if his father's side of the family had immigrated from some European country rather than an African country. It's not liberals fault that a lot of conservatives aren't self-aware enough to recognize their prejudice.


<.< france.

Also i find your remark about xenophobia odd considering you have to be born in America to be a president the whole concept is kind of xenophobic but really not since it would be odd to have a foreign president. Also to accuse your opponents(I'm using this because I'm too lazy to think of something better) of being racist even though they don't think their racist is rude especially when you don't back up your statements with anything. It also won't result in anything good if you can't provide evidence that might make the person/s your addressing see how their argument is racist and reconsider.

Sure if you just want to take everything literally at face value it isn't blatently racist. However there are undertones. When 'birthers' act boneheaded and continue believing factually innacurate claims, despite being proven wrong over and over again, that is evidence enough for me that these people are not thinking straight and are motivated by an ugly prejudice.

I hate to break it to you but a lot of people are not honest about what they really believe. Just look around the internet and you'll see a lot of blatent racism from people who wouldn't dare say the things they do in public.



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27 Oct 2010, 9:15 pm

marshall wrote:
Since when are any of the 'birther' claims reasonable? Also, if these people aren't xenophobic why don't they drop it once they're proven wrong? It seems like they're not motivated by facts or reason but by xenophobic paranoia and suspicions. It's also really insulting for these people to keep LYING and spreading FALSE rumors. It's like they're trying to slander the president by repeating this crap over and over again. They want to paint him as a "foreign born muslim" just to scare people. They're as bad as holocaust deniers.


Maybe they're like Master_Pedant and feel that their cause is so righteous that it justifies any means in order to achieve it. That doesn't require any racism, xenophobia, etc, just a lack of shame and ethics.


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27 Oct 2010, 9:38 pm

Dox47 wrote:
marshall wrote:
Since when are any of the 'birther' claims reasonable? Also, if these people aren't xenophobic why don't they drop it once they're proven wrong? It seems like they're not motivated by facts or reason but by xenophobic paranoia and suspicions. It's also really insulting for these people to keep LYING and spreading FALSE rumors. It's like they're trying to slander the president by repeating this crap over and over again. They want to paint him as a "foreign born muslim" just to scare people. They're as bad as holocaust deniers.


Maybe they're like Master_Pedant and feel that their cause is so righteous that it justifies any means in order to achieve it. That doesn't require any racism, xenophobia, etc, just a lack of shame and ethics.


You want to goad MP back into the fray? I'm not going to defend him other than to say none of his stuff strikes me as being on the same level. Maybe if we had some rabid "troofer" on the liberal side here there would be an exemplary comparison.



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27 Oct 2010, 10:04 pm

Bataar wrote:
There are conspiracy theorists out there for everything. There are idiots out there who believe the 9/11 attacks were an inside job. If there are idiots out there who believe that, it's even easier to believe there are idiots who believe Obama's birth certificate, the one he showed, is fake or doesn't have the correct watermark or whatever they claim. However, it's not a racial issue. No where in their arguments is race even mentioned. They're doing it because they believe it's a tool to get a president who is very bad for our country out of office. Like I said, if a similar argument/case could have been made against Bush, the same thing would have happened, only the media would be backing the conspiracy nuts in that case. The only people who bring race up are the liberals. Yes, it's a stupid conspiracy theory, but race has nothing to do with it.


You bring up a good example: the people who think that Bush orchestrated 9/11. Now, I don't doubt that they honestly believe what they believe, but the reason that they're willing to suspend their normal requirements of evidence in Bush's case is because they think Bush was evil.

If the birthers merely thought Obama was evil and wanted to get him out of office, then the muslim/socialist conspiracy theories would be enough; they have to delegitimize him as an American, though, which is where the racism of it comes in.