Which ideology is the best at economics?

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Which group knows economics best?

Conservative (or other center-right ideologies)	15%	[ 4 ]
Liberal (or other center-left ideologies)	15%	[ 4 ]
Socialist (cooperative capitalism, social democracy etc.)	30%	[ 8 ]
Fascist (nationalist or other far right ideologies)	0%	[ 0 ]
Libertarian (laissez faire on market and social issues)	37%	[ 10 ]
Anarchist/libertarian socialist (non-propertarian, direct democracy)	4%	[ 1 ]

Total votes : 27

sartresue
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11 Nov 2010, 3:25 pm

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

poisonous foodstuffs

Speaking of "poisonous foodstuffs", notice how the obesity epidemic started right when the government promulgated the "food pyramid".

Nothing about the economy is so bad that the government can't make it worse.

A great pyramid topic

How can wise food choices lead to obesity? A visual like a food guide or pyramid helps a person to decide better nurtitional choices. It can be more expensive than eating at McD's, but this is the problem: Cheap eats, super sized, available 24/7. Add inactivity, boredom and stress and you have the recipe for obesity. No surprise there.

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Inuyasha
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11 Nov 2010, 3:29 pm

Mc Donalds in moderation isn't bad for you, its when you eat it every single day that it becomes a problem. I throw responsibility for the problem on the parents not Mc Donalds.

Orwell
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11 Nov 2010, 3:46 pm

sartresue wrote:

How can wise food choices lead to obesity? A visual like a food guide or pyramid helps a person to decide better nurtitional choices. It can be more expensive than eating at McD's, but this is the problem: Cheap eats, super sized, available 24/7. Add inactivity, boredom and stress and you have the recipe for obesity. No surprise there.

McD's isn't even cheap. I can go to my local grocery store and eat cheaper (and better) than you ever could at McDonald's. I can even get real beef, instead of whatever the hell is in a Big Mac.

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sartresue
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11 Nov 2010, 3:56 pm

Orwell wrote:

sartresue wrote:

McD's isn't even cheap. I can go to my local grocery store and eat cheaper (and better) than you ever could at McDonald's. I can even get real beef, instead of whatever the hell is in a Big Mac.

Food politics topic

I know what you mean. I can buy the raw ingredients for a good nurtitious meal rather inexpensively, but for many, eating a hot meal, already cooked, for under five dollars that is ready tickety-boo and supersized full of fill-up but ycuky fries is their way of false economy. For an already overweight person, who would not find a salad filling, even an order of large fries with gravy is more of a meal. I know the logic is flawed, but they prefer this to a box of kraft dinner, the only cheap homemade food many are familiar with, and many of these people do not know how to prepare a nutritious but inexpensive meal.

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waltur
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11 Nov 2010, 4:38 pm

sartresue wrote:

Orwell wrote:

sartresue wrote:

McD's isn't even cheap. I can go to my local grocery store and eat cheaper (and better) than you ever could at McDonald's. I can even get real beef, instead of whatever the hell is in a Big Mac.

Food politics topic

I know what you mean. I can buy the raw ingredients for a good nurtitious meal rather inexpensively, but for many, eating a hot meal, already cooked, for under five dollars that is ready tickety-boo and supersized full of fill-up but ycuky fries is their way of false economy. For an already overweight person, who would not find a salad filling, even an order of large fries with gravy is more of a meal. I know the logic is flawed, but they prefer this to a box of kraft dinner, the only cheap homemade food many are familiar with, and many of these people do not know how to prepare a nutritious but inexpensive meal.

just be careful not to make that information available to them, lest you be labeled a fascist comminazi.

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psychohist
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11 Nov 2010, 4:48 pm

sartresue wrote:

How can wise food choices lead to obesity?

They can't.

The problem was that the McGovern commission ignored most of the scientific advice that was provided, in favor of McGovern's personal prejudices - or perhaps his home state's interests.

The result was a government issued "food pyramid" that recommended lots of empty carbohydrate calories, which of course led to the present obesity epidemic.

Sand
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11 Nov 2010, 6:46 pm

psychohist wrote:

sartresue wrote:

How can wise food choices lead to obesity?

There is no doubt that there is bad government. The G.W.Bush administration provided plenty of that. And the Democrats are no amateurs at bad government either. But to condemn all government as inherently bad leaves you at the mercy of private enterprise whose only basic motivation is to squeeze as much money out of the populace as they can with minimum delivery of quality goods and services. There is both good and bad government and private enterprise and it is up to the citizenry to optimize the good and the only handle the community has on control is through government. Unregulated business very quickly becomes dirty and this is true of unregulated government as well. The separation of powers visualized by the founders has become thoroughly corrupted by the big money of corporations and the system has pretty much broken down.

Awesomelyglorious
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11 Nov 2010, 7:45 pm

Orwell wrote:

sartresue wrote:

McD's isn't even cheap. I can go to my local grocery store and eat cheaper (and better) than you ever could at McDonald's. I can even get real beef, instead of whatever the hell is in a Big Mac.

I found cow heart for $1 a pound.

ruveyn
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11 Nov 2010, 8:29 pm

psychohist wrote:

sartresue wrote:

How can wise food choices lead to obesity?

Lack of exercise comes into play also.

ruveyn

psychohist
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11 Nov 2010, 10:04 pm

Sand wrote:

But to condemn all government as inherently bad leaves you at the mercy of private enterprise whose only basic motivation is to squeeze as much money out of the populace as they can with minimum delivery of quality goods and services.

This reflects a misconception of private enterprise and the free market. Contrary to what you say, the free market is built on the concept of mutual benefit - the only successful businesses are the ones who provide the highest quality goods and services for the lowest price, because those are the ones that will attract customers. It's modern socialism that's built on greed and selfishness, the idea that the only way to get what you want is to take it away from someone else by force; free enterprise is built on the opposite, the idea that to the best way to get what you want is to find a way to get someone else what they want, too.

The reason a free market works so well is exactly because private actors cannot use force to extort things from those who have no access to force. It's only the government that has such a monopoly on force. And that's exactly why government enterprises tend to work poorly: since the government has a monopoly on force, it doesn't have to bother coming up with things that will help someone else get what they want.

The only things that governments are the best answer for are things that depend on a monopoly on force, such as military forces for territorial defense and police forces for law enforcement. And even there, it's not so much that government is the best answer as that there is no other answer that works.

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11 Nov 2010, 10:17 pm

Whether or not it is achieved through total government control or total corporate control the result is self-denial and austerity that are things that many conservatives think is "good" for the rascal multitude and will make for better people, as Mellon said as the Great Depression took hold. Better to invest than to consume, and the rest of it... better to give it to either Big Capital or the State to put it into factories to build things... wealth must be concentrated to build plants... only that the dirty secret is that Big Capital now prefers to gamble it at the casino and find ways to create volatility and profit from it. To make lots of money without producing anything at all.

xenon13
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11 Nov 2010, 10:19 pm

This talk about how no force is used under Capitalism is abject nonsense. In the end, there's a mailed fist behind the maintenance of the power structures under Capitalism under which people are forced into unequal relationships... and without unions, that Iron Law of Wages produces effective slavery for most.

Sand
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11 Nov 2010, 10:35 pm

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

The free market is a BS fantasy which even a close reading of Adam Smith dismisses. The amount of unwanted and dangerous crap produced by corporations at prices that in no way reflect the cost of production and dumped on an ignorant public disproves the whole nonsensical myth.

psychohist
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11 Nov 2010, 11:57 pm

Sand wrote:

The disdain and disgust for the public here demonstrated is appalling and typical of the liberal attitude. In truth, members of the public are not ignorant and are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves which goods are worth buying and which are not.

Sand
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12 Nov 2010, 12:51 am

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

Such as the quality of fast foods, the "improvements" in medications that are put on the market because they are under patent rather than that they are better than the cheaper ones they replaced, such as salmonella infected meat that is shipped out by the ton and then recalled because government has discovered the infection, such as toys and baby equipment that is pulled off the market because of lead content or badly designed to be lethal to infants? I suppose after you have lost a kid or two you can wise up.

ruveyn
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12 Nov 2010, 12:57 am

Sand wrote:

psychohist wrote:

Sand wrote:

I say, Old Chap. What great inventions has Finland produced lately?

At least the Swiss invented the Coo Coo Clock. What have the Finns done of late?

ruveyn

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