Is Atheism a threat to Freedom

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Our rights come from thinking. It's pretty easy to create some kind of mental model of human rights. One very simple starting point is to realize that we are all humans, and we have to share this planet. From there we can simply think about what the best way to act might be. Some of us might end up with a good idea about treating people fairly and not hurting people, while some others might not. I am entirely without belief in a deity, yet I have very easily come to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea to go around punching people in the face. It would hurt them, so I don't do it. I don't like being punched in the face, so I don't subject others to it. God has nothing to do with the equation. I have already pointed out that the only supposed source of your particular deity's command, the Bible, commands some pretty messed up things. And you know that they are messed up things, so clearly your source of judgment is not the Bible. It is your own capacity for thinking critically, along with the time you live in, that has lead you to be the kind of person who can look at passages in the Bible and realize that they are morally flawed. You are the evidence that secular morality is BETTER than religious morality.

Last edited by Vince on 12 Nov 2010, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

another pro-freedom gem from the old testament: exodus 21:20-21.

exodus 21:20-21 (lolcatbible.com) "20 Iff U hitz yr slaev wid a stik, and teh slaiv gtz hurt, U muss B haxxored,21 butt no prolbem, if slaev okai lader. Itz yr slaev, lol! "

that is an excellent way to say it.

Does it? Is the only reason you behave yourself because you are afraid of going to hell otherwise?

I wouldn't think so. I suspect you behave yourself because you are basically a good person who was brought up properly, not just because you fear hell. The same is true of most atheists: we behave ourselves because we are good people who were brought up properly.

Yes, there are a few who obey the law only because they would get caught otherwise, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

According to the Bible, God has intervened directly in the past. However, you have to be very careful on demanding that God intervene on everything. If he did that, we would be nothing more than puppets on strings acting things out for his amusement.



God does not teach that men should buy and sell women like you would an inanimate object. Nor did God say it was okay to arbitrarily beat your wife. Additionally I can't remember where in the Book of Judges, but wasn't there a Woman Judge? Slavery did exist during that time, however God did say you shouldn't be out and out abusive towards slaves. I don't have a Bible in front of me at the moment but didn't it have something to do with the fact that he delivered the Israelites out of slavery from Egypt.



The idea that there is no consequences for your actions as long as you don't get caught is the issue. Belief in God includes the idea that you may get away with something on Earth, but you will have to answer for it and explain yourself when you die.

I will point out that under Judaism and Christianity is not okay to lie to people if the person you are lieing to isn't also a Christian or Jew. Doesn't mean people whom are Christian didn't lie to people, just that it is not considered acceptable.

If I remember correctly, it is okay under the Quran for a muslim to lie to a nonmuslim if it benefits the muslim. (Because nonmuslims are infidels)



I don't have to prove theism is a prerequisite of freedom, I only have to show atheism's flaw which can make it a threat to our freedoms.

If our rights don't come from God, they come from Government. If our rights come from Government, what moral right do we have to rebel if Government decides to take away those rights? If our rights come from God, then if Government tries to take away our rights, then we have every right to rebel.

@ psychohist

I don't do things I feel is wrong because I don't think they are ethical. However, for some people their fear of God's judgement may actually prevent them from doing something wrong.

again, exodus 21:20-21 (lolcatbible.com) "20 Iff U hitz yr slaev wid a stik, and teh slaiv gtz hurt, U muss B haxxored,21 butt no prolbem, if slaev okai lader. Itz yr slaev, lol!"

maybe the new king james would help? "20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money."

the NIV? "20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

try harder.

Problem with secular morality is that it is all relative and can change based on the times. What would be considered immoral and heinous today could be considered completely normal and even encouraged 20 years from now cause the times have changed.

Aborting children because they may have Autism could be argued as ethical under secular morality. However under Catholic discipline (and I'm not Catholic I think the Catholic Church has serious issues, but they can be right at times) every child has value and they condemn abortion even if the child might not be "normal." The Catholics are also against fertility clinics and sexual activity before marriage, the reason they are against condems and the pill is because they feel those items encourage the irresponsible behavior in the first place.

@waltur

Again, this is about atheism not Christianity or Judaism. Trying to sling mud at a bunch of religions to distract people from the issue isn't going to work.

If that "relative" morality is good morality, what do you care about how it was arrived at? As long as someone respects human life and property what difference do his theological inclinations make. And some religious people are dangerous to human life. Consider the Jihadi Muslim extremists for example. They believe in God more than you do and they will kill for their beliefs.

I have only one question to ask of another: do you have decent regard for the life and property of those who mean you no harm? A simple yes/no tells me all I need to know.

I prefer the company of a good hearted, fair minded pagan to an overly self righteous believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The first will live and let live. The second will kill for his/her beliefs. Who is more dangerous?

ruveyn

Curiously, there is not one single passage in the entire Bible that states that slavery is an altogether bad idea. Still, I know that it is, and I certainly hope you do as well. This is because we know better than people did back when they invented God.


Wrong. In order to say that atheism (lack of belief in a deity) is a threat to freedom, you have to demonstrate that freedom comes from theism (belief in a deity). Otherwise, you simply do not even have half a case.


False dichotomy alert! Our rights don't come from God, nor government. They come from us, living together on this planet and figuring things out as we go along, as we always have. I can look at a government and conclude that they are stepping on people's rights, because my morality is independent of any absolute authority. I use critical thinking to make moral judgment. I don't make moral judgment based on what I am told. I take what I am told into account and weigh it against my own previous judgment and I use critical thinking to figure out which choice is more ethical. Better ideas spring up, old morally inferior ideas are thrown away. But then there are movements - usually religious - that want to keep old crappy ideas around and shut out new ideas.


Right. That explains why no religious people ever do anything bad. Off the top of your head, what do you think the ratio is in your country of religious vs non-religous persons in prison, compared to outside of prison?

I say yea verily to secular morality that respects life and property. It is not arrived at out of fear of punishment or reward after death (their is nothing after death). It is arrived at because it is Right and Good. So who is the better one; one who strives after Right because it is Right or one who cringes out of fear of Punishment?

ruveyn

I didn't say that religious people will not commit crimes, I just stated that some people whom might commit a crime otherwise did not due to religion.

Also in reference to Slavery, I don't have a Bible in front of me at the moment but there was a passage in the New Testament regarding treatment of slaves, about yeah they should obey their masters but their masters should also treat them with dignity and remember that the Lord is their master and if they mistreat the people under them, they will have to answer to God.

Also I think there is another passage in New Testament condemning Slave Traders.

Look under:
1 Timothy 1:10

We can make the same kind of hypothesis the other way around, and I can ask you how many people you think there may have been, who wouldn't have done horrible things if they weren't religious. Think of all the suicide bombings, witch hunts, hate crimes (and legislations) against homosexuals, holy wars...


Not good enough. Slavery is completely inexcusable, and any morally decent god would know that and make sure it ended up in the book.


I looked up a few translations of the passage. It was very glossed over, sort of a passing mention, and quite a few of them seemed to refer more to people who kidnap people into slavery (and not slave traders, though a couple of versions did say that). None of them said anything against owning slaves or the concept of slavery itself, which should have been in there if it was written (or magically inspired) by a morally just god (and all those passages where said god condones slavery and the beating thereof wouldn't have been in there to begin with).
Also, most of the versions mentioned homosexuals on the same list (some just summed it up to "sexual perverts" or similar terms). You just referred me to a Bible verse that basically equates homosexuality with kidnapping people into slavery. Good jorb.

You have it wrong; with Christianity, you can be forgiven for any act, no matter how heinous. You can murder a schoolbus full of children, and as long as you 'take Jesus into your heart' before they fry you, you'll end up in heaven.

There is plenty of evidence currently and throughout history that some powerful people have done very nasty things and there is no retribution so people invent imaginary retribution in an imaginary world after death. It satisfies some unimaginative people who cannot bear reality. You cannot help them.. .

no, most of the founding fathers believed in god, but were not christians. also, the church SUPPORTED slavery. it wasn't "god" that made MLK decide to lead the civil rights movement. he was fed up with all the racism and biggotry

the belief in g-d especially christianity lead to horrible things i.e. The crusades, salem witch hunts, the inquistion, pius XII and his suspicious relationship with hitler during the holocaust, not to mention bashing of stem cell research that could've saved lives.