Separation of Church and State

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You reached a terrible conclusion. Your logic is so bad you make me think you want to be believe it. My argument was if God says it has to be done, then God would have to have sufficient moral reasons for the conclusion. This is due to what we establish the nature of God to be; all knowing and all loving. He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are. For example, I have no right to take an innocent life. For me to do so would be murder. So basing your conclusion on 'because some guy says God says its ok' is clearly ridiculous because that person clearly still possesses moral duties.

so, yeah, it's ok for gods to commit genocide. We get it already.
"Do as I say, not as I do."
-God.

Well this kind of proves my internal belief that atheists are skeptics and those bruised by religion but anti-theists are just annoyed that if there is a God, its not them. (note I am not categorizing you)

Again a very stupid generalization. The concept of a god that is in control of the universe is the ultimate extension of the primitive impulse to place a willful human type of mind inside of other animals, trees, meteorological phenomena, and anything encountered by the primitive human mind outside itself. I find that immensely objectionable, not that I would be god, but that it is so profoundly uninformed, unimaginative, misconstrued, stupid and useless. As a human I expect better of my species and I want my fellow humans to see and understand and perhaps control their minuscule sector of the universe wisely and with compassion and deep understanding. I am offended by the misuse of the great gift of intelligence to gull most of humanity for what frequently becomes vicious and stupid activity and which is so openly demonstrated by religion.

So, your not prejudice against religion at all are you?

No, I give it the honest evaluation it requires. That it rates so miserably is merely a clear and objective consideration.

I think me and billions of other people would state that you are wrong.

I didn't expect any other judgment from you and that is the tragedy.

Yeah, how dare I not agree to your universal condemnation of religion. Now it is one thing to have decided yourself that something shared by everyone else is wrong. To treat people badly based on that judgement is something else. Then to suppose that your opinion must be shared by everyone, regardless of the fact that other people can logically think differently than you is just plain dangerous.

Goodness gracious! Temper, temper. Look in the mirror.

Goodness gracious! Temper, temper. Look in the mirror.[/quote]

I am just making the point that your unjustified in making a judgement that religion is categorically bad. Building on that to the place where you feel to insult people based on the judgement you make on them is just silly.

Why would I be angry, I can make a point without being emotional about it.

I am just making the point that your unjustified in making a judgement that religion is categorically bad. Building on that to the place where you feel to insult people based on the judgement you make on them is just silly.

Why would I be angry, I can make a point without being emotional about it.[/quote]

Sand did not write.
Stop the outright misquote. Your dishonesty is deplorable but apparently typical.

Easy, Sand. The both of you are just tired enough to be messing up your quote frames. Maybe time to give it a rest for a while.

@91:
I am an atheist, and I am grateful for that b/c I would be a maltheist if I were not.
Actually, that's not true; on second thought, if I were able to believe in gods I'd probably convert to something like Wicca or Shinto that has nice gods.

It's obvious the conversation is not only not fruitful but simply does not move. I am accused of prejudice which is a total misconception of prejudice. The word means judging on the basis of no grounds. There is an overwhelming abundance of grounds.

yeah... 'cause there's nothing billions of other people disagree with you on. i guess there are no muslims, jews, hindu, buddhists, -oh wait, i think i get it. when you want to talk about "theism/atheism" you leave your "christian hat" on the hook and claim that everyone who thinks there's a god is right. but you don't think they're right. you think the right answer is jesus. but even within christianity there are fractured shards of sects. which interpretation do you adhere to again? i don't even remember.

is my distaste for your inconsistency an example of prejudice? perhaps, though i prefer sand's notion of judgment better than your hollow accusations.

i actually don't see a need for the separation of church and state.

i think it would be better to have a state religion.

first, we should go about the business of figuring out which one is best.

any (non-prejudiced) suggestions?

I'd go with the ideas of Peter J Carroll. Especially that of random belief:







RANDOM BELIEF
Various stages in the belief cycle of the self are provided in the
following sections. Try each or any of them for a week, a
month, or a year. This exercise may save one an unnecessary
incarnation or two. It may also help to make clear the aeonic
mechanism which creates the various psychic milleniums of
past and future history. The beliefs are given in order, with
Number 1 understood to follow on from Number 6 in a circle.
Atheism and Chaoism are presented in both their early and
degenerate phases to make clear the stages of change, and to
permit the use of the sacred cube.

Dice Option Number 1: Paganism
The gods show themselves in all things. In the elements,
tempestuous and placid by turns; in the seas, the mountains,
the green fields, in the hail and in the lightning. They show
themselves as various animals and they show themselves in
metals and in stones. Most of all they show themselves in the
mind of man impelling him to love, to war, to fortune, or to
disaster. The gods watch over everything in the world; there is
no thing not under the auspices of some god or other.
For in all things there is both substance and essence. The gods
came out of Chaos, and from the gods came the essences of all
things — some gods giving essences to some things and others
to different things. Man contains the essences of all the gods.
What is good or what is ill is what is pleasing or displeasing to the
gods. But what is pleasing to Mars may not please Venus.
Hence there is war in heaven even as there is war in man. Yet
by making an appropriate invocation or offering we may set
matters aright and gain their favors. If we live always in
devotion to our patron god and do not displease the others
overmuch, our shade will go at death to rejoin the essence of
its deity.

Dice Option Number 2: Monotheism
There is but One God who created everything.
He created man in his own image.
He gave man free will to do good or evil.
Good is what pleases God, evil displeases him.
After you die God will reward or punish you
For pleasing or displeasing him.
God also created angels and demons.
These are spirits with free will,
Some remained good, some became evil.
These spirits help man to become good
Or tempt him to do evil.
If you stop doing something evil
God will be pleased.
If you stop doing something you enjoy
For God's sake, he is also pleased.
You may pray to God and ask him for help.
You may worship him with prayer also.
By this he will be pleased.
To know how to be good and please God
You must obey the teachings
And the authority of the religious hierarchy
He has established on earth
As the one true religion.

Dice Option Number 3: Atheism
The idea of God or a personal soul is an hypothesis we have no
need of. Besides there is not the slightest scrap of material
evidence that will stand up to examination. Let's stick to what's
real, shall we?
There is always some sort of a reason or explanation for
everything even if we haven't managed to work it all out yet.
But we're doing pretty well. I mean, you've only to look
around yourself, the whole universe works on a sensible cause
and effect basis; it's only hocus pocus if you're too primitive to
work out how it works. Free will, for instance, is probably just an
illusion caused by some defect in the neuroelectro-biochemical
plumbing in the brain. But we'll all go on using it till we find
out. After all, enjoyment is the whole point in life. The only
sort of morality or law worth having is that which stops fools
from spoiling their own or other people's enjoyment in the
long run.
And when you're dead, you're dead.
Until we find evidence to the contrary.

Dice Option Number 4: Nihilism (Late Atheism)
Material causality is everything. Science can probably explain
away everything. There is nothing which is not caused by
something else.
But this is no-explanation.
The world now seems accidental, arbitrary, and without
meaning. We can know How everything happens but there is
no reason Why. The universe has become predictable but
meaningless. That is the burden of intelligence, of being able
to see through it all. There is obviously no spirit or personal
survival after death. Hence there is no reason to do anything, or
for that matter, to restrain from doing anything. Even this is to
deceive ourselves for there is no such thing as free will. One
cannot help but get involved in doing because one happens to
be. All motivation is just an attempt to put the body-brain in a
lower energy, less tense state, even if by a roundabout route.
There are no absolutes in terms of importance, goodness,
meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure
of the body brain and its surroundings.
We are just living out the chaotically complex forces which
spawned us and which will one day reduce us to nothingness
again.
Everything we will ever do is just a result of how we are made
and what happens to us. For all our pretense of free will, we are
an accident running a fixed but unknown course.

Dice Option Number 5: Chaoism
As above, so below
I am the universe
The life force in us
Is the life force of the universe
The subtle force in us (aether)
Is the subtle force of the universe
The gross matter in us
Is the gross matter of the universe
To Chaos, nothing is true
And everything is permitted
Though it has limited itself
To the principle of duality
In building this world
for itself.
(For a further elucidation of these beliefs consult The Book of
Chaos in its entirety.)

Dice Option Number 6: Superstition (Low Chaoism)
All phenomena having come from the one source, there exist
mysterious connections between things with similarities.
All like things contain the same signature or essence; they
share the same spirit. This essence or spirit can be made to go
into other things by bringing the signature-bearing objects into
contact with whatever is being treated. This is the principle of
contagion.
All things being connected in diverse, mysterious ways, one can
take augury from anything about anything of which it reminds
one. There is nothing that is not an omen about something else
to him that but has the wit to know it.
And by similar wisdom, anything can be affected by performing
the required action on some other thing that reminds one of it.
Like attracts like, the principle of similarity.
Wisest of all are those who know the most deeply hidden
connections. They are able to be reminded of the obscure by
the more obscure. They know what sacrifices are to be made to
adjust or placate the essences of things. Morality is the
avoidance of misfortune. One's next incarnation will be as
whatever creature of which one's activity in life is most
reminiscent.