The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel

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skafather84
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25 Jan 2011, 2:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
War on Drugs could be argued as legitimate for multiple reasons.
1. There is a Border Issue involved (US, Mexican Border)
2. Drug addicts can be a danger to society as a whole.
3. Drug dealers often will try to market to kids and teens even on school grounds.



1. If you legalize drugs, the border issue will mostly be resolved because there'll be no more money for black marketeers to make.


Sure, like the drug dealers are just going to pack up and leave. :roll:


Obviously making it illegal hasn't done anything other than encourage drug use and abuse (drug use has exploded since the war on drugs started).


Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
2. Prove it. I have first hand experience with drugs and users. What do you have other than BS rhetoric? Drug addicts would be much less a danger to society if they weren't placed outside of it because of garbage laws that make what they do to themselves illegal. Not to mention they wouldn't need to steal as much either considering that the legalization of drugs would cause a massive drop in prices (and would probably also mean that drugs would dry up in many places where it would no longer be a profitable venture). These people are already illegal by default...do you think that committing another crime on top makes any difference to most of them? If you make it legal, you eliminate that extra motivation.


Sarcasm: Okay sure LSD is such a great drug... Psychosis, genetic damage, hallucinations, but that's all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD

Sarcasm: Okay Cocaine can cause strokes, it is a high powered stimulent for goodness sakes, I think everyone whom has ADHD and is on ADHD medications are well aware of how dangerous and addictive medications like Ritalin are to people whom are nonADHD.


A) I never said LSD.
B) You never refuted the points I made. Most likely because no prohibitionist rhetoric actually thinks about the users themselves other than in the view that they should be sober and nothing else matters. That worked out great during alcohol prohibition and is doing much of the same for the rest of prohibition.



Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
3. You act like as if it'll still be pushers on the street after legalization. That won't be the case for most of the stuff other than maybe weed. Most drugs do require a fair bit of processing and it wouldn't be an operation that would just run on the streets. You also have to assume that it'd be treated much the same way as tobacco and alcohol currently are treated where there are regulations and penalties to be faced if you don't follow the law. Black markets get onto school campuses much more easily than legal markets and legal markets have less impetus to do such things.


Uh that explains how juveniles end up getting cigarettes and alcohol, often setting them up to be abused by an adult. Now you're giving the adult more to things to choose from to entice minors.


No system is perfect but it's more effective than if it were a black market of cigarettes and alcohol. You cannot control people's behavior 100% but you can certainly make more effective conditions for people. The current prohibition environment means that sales and uses are both open to children much more so than if it were legal and actually controlled. Controlled is a funny word to use for "controlled substances" given that there's the least control possible with regards to quality and who it can be sold to.


Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Addicts and users will still exist, this is obvious by the fact that there are so many now with it illegal. The studies done elsewhere show that just the simple act of decriminalization drops use rate exponentially, to actually legalize it would most likely not only do the same but also increase revenue, create new jobs, and allow people to re-enter society rather than their existence being defined as "illegal per se" without committing any actual crimes.


I will agree with you on the fact the people using the drugs shouldn't be punished as harshly as they are currently. A lot of people are introduced to these substances by immoral individuals looking for new "customers." Addiction isn't something that most people can easily overcome I think rehab should be pushed more, and actually research done to make rehab more effective than the joke it currently is for some people. I think there should be stiffer penalties for dealers though than even the ones currently on the book.


Again, you're approaching it from a position of superiority which is unhealthy. A parent-child relationship will not help this. You, of all people, should be against such paternal actions from the government.

But then again, you show no understanding of markets and how an actual free market works versus a black market. I guess this is understandable since you've never engaged in any black market transactions but the logic is pretty simple in how it'd cut off funds to pushers, discourage growers, and save money on jailing costs, courtroom costs, and police costs (and the time wasted by the latter two enforcing such useless laws).


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visagrunt
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25 Jan 2011, 2:25 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sure, like the drug dealers are just going to pack up and leave. :roll:


Well we do have an historical model in prohibition.

With the onset of prohibition, organized crime moved quickly to establish a supply for a population that continued to demand alcohol. Prohibition was a demonstrable failure as public policy, and when it was lifted, the legitimate sale of alcohol removed any profit motive for organized crime to continue providing it.

Now, this is not to say that organized crime packed up and left. But they did turn to new goods and services.

Quote:
Sarcasm: Okay sure LSD is such a great drug... Psychosis, genetic damage, hallucinations, but that's all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD

Sarcasm: Okay Cocaine can cause strokes, it is a high powered stimulent for goodness sakes, I think everyone whom has ADHD and is on ADHD medications are well aware of how dangerous and addictive medications like Ritalin are to people whom are nonADHD.


I am not going to argue with you on this one. From a medical perspective, I have issues with the whole range of psychotropes. Abuse of both legal, prescription drugs and of restricted and prohibited recreational drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) present issues of medical concern. Let's not limit ourselves to LSD, cocaine and Ritalin.

However, I question the viability of the approach we currently have. We approach recreational drugs from the nanny state approach of, "we know best, so we are going to ban them," but we countenance tobacco which imposes huge public costs. We allow for the prescription of oxycodone, and expect that physicians and pharmacists are somehow going to police its use.

I think it's a bit of a bankrupt policy.

Quote:
Uh that explains how juveniles end up getting cigarettes and alcohol, often setting them up to be abused by an adult. Now you're giving the adult more to things to choose from to entice minors.


I am not sure that I buy the "floodgates" argument. Juveniles are already getting more than merely cigarettes and alcohol. Present approaches have been a resounding failure at stemming abuse by young people.

I agree that a policy that makes a bad situation worse is not the right approach--but I am not yet persuaded that a change in approach is necessarily going to make this bad situation worse. (Though I remain open to the possibility).

Quote:
I will agree with you on the fact the people using the drugs shouldn't be punished as harshly as they are currently. A lot of people are introduced to these substances by immoral individuals looking for new "customers." Addiction isn't something that most people can easily overcome I think rehab should be pushed more, and actually research done to make rehab more effective than the joke it currently is for some people. I think there should be stiffer penalties for dealers though than even the ones currently on the book.


This raises the significant public policy question: who pays for rehab?

I will suggest that one of the reasons that we have some of the issues that we currently face is that the public sector has been steadily eroding the supports in place for the urban underclass. We have closed beds in psychiatric hospitals, we have made access to transition programs more difficult.

The high demand for rehab is, I suggest, one of those examples where we have been penny wise and pound foolish. By saving money on program spending, government has created an unfunded pressure elsewhere. At root, I believe that public spending should be undertaken in a way that looks beyond merely the bottom line in terms of understanding its cost and its benefits.


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