religion and "mental illness"

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I think I can explain AngelRho's point in a slightly different which may help:

Think of the number pi. Pi is a specific number that happens to express the ratio between a circle's circumference and its radius.

Pi is not just a number that's "made up" or invented, it is discovered. Anyone who researches the math correctly will find the same value of pi. Anyone will find the same formula for the radius of circle. Pi objectively exists whether any human has thought of it or not.

Which existed first, pi or circles? Pi exists before any given circle exists, and it exists afterwards. Could a circle, as we know it, exist without the idea of pi? No. The idea of pi makes a physical circle possible to begin with.

The point is that ideas are metaphysical and form the foundation of physical reality. They don't exist anywhere physical yet they apply anywhere and everywhere. The materialist denies the reality of metaphysics ironically enough, using imagination, thoughts, words, which are metaphysical. One might claim that those things are just chemical reactions in the brain, but that is forgetting the fact that those ideas existed before one thought about them, and do not cease to exist after they are forgotten. Saying ideas are just chemical reactions in the brain is like saying ideas are just words in a book.

The materialist might think he's clever in dismissing the need for metaphysical explanations. But actually the way a materialist dismisses thinking about metaphysical reality is kind of like how an animal probably dismisses thinking about physical reality. A goat does not wonder "why does grass grow?". If you could communicate with a goat, and tried to explain photosynthesis to it it probably would think you were stupid and just "making stuff up". It just likes to eat the grass but cannot conceive of its relationship with the sun and the rain. To a goat or maybe we need a stupider animal for this example, grass just grows, no need for a why.

An ancient secluded person see's a mountain and might ask why it is there. They ask why and when it was formed even though as far as they know it has always been there, but we would not criticize him or her for doing that.

In the same way, a person should ask why does pi exist? Why is pi 3.14159.... instead of 5.14159? We can't just take the underlying metaphysical structure of reality for granted.

No, this does not prove god exists. It proves that other levels of reality that are not physical exist, and they are quite "solid" and useful, not to mention essential to physical reality being able to exist at all. The materialist thinks that ideas are not possible without physical reality, but the opposite is the actual truth.

Humanity can build physical skyscrapers because it knows how to use math, how to work with things on this metaphysical plane. Working out how to design a skyscraper is not pure physical and empirical experimentation, it comes from working on this plane of mathematical ideas.

There are still other levels of reality (emotions and morality), but I won't get into that, I'll stick to mathematical ideas since they are objective. The other planes of existence besides physical are not vague and fleeting, it just seems that way sometimes because man is just better at perceiving physical reality than metaphysical ideas. They do not go away after you stop thinking about them.

It was actually only just a couple of years ago actually when it finally sunk in for me. I am not trying to convince everyone, I guess either you get it or you don't: The fact that ideas Exist. They do not physically exist, but they still exist in a stable objective form, independantly of physical reality or whether or not anyone has discovered them yet. That may not seem like a big deal to many people, but that does not mean those people are enlightened. A goat does not think grass is a big deal either.

Another important point I'd like to make is that many think being mystical or religious or whatever is all about believing for no reason in things we can't see. I'm sure there are many people like that, but ideally, the difference between a "mystic" and a "materialist" is that they interpret common every day things in a different way.

Many things can be considered facts but there's always an infinite number of ways to interpret facts, one may use different models of reality. If we have the numbers 1,2, and 4, some may say the next number is 8, and others may say the next number 16, reflecting how they see the sequence of number differently, but they are both right. In the same way, we all observe pretty much the same things in how the world works, but we can interpret it in different ways and pay more or less attention to different aspects. So my point is abandoning materialism does not necessarily entail abandoning empirical data.

@richardbenson: I said pick ONE. I'm not going to go through every single supposed contradiction in a single sitting. Let's start with one contradiction and go from there. Where would you like to begin?

Because the guy said there have been sightings of angels, when clearly as a christian you arent supose to see anything to believe, thus a contradiction

dude, give me a break. those are real so you can look them up. its not like I made them up

@BlueMage: Well done! I have a tendency to be overly wordy and flood discussions. While useful, I've been thinking for a while about changing my approach and perhaps correcting some bad habits. I think I've said something very close to what you wrote in other threads, and this sums up many of my views quite nicely. Thank you!

I'm pointing out that there have been witnesses to sightings of Angels, in fact there have been sightings by people that didn't believe in Angels too.

Maybe they took too much robitussin and what they really saw was a gigantic spoon

That's not a contradiction at all. The thing about faith is that, as I think you are probably all too aware, is ANYONE can just say something, fail to support it, and try to convince people to "just believe it." The correct response is "Why SHOULD I believe you?" Or, "why SHOULD I believe Christ?" Or, "Why SHOULD I trust the Bible?" Or, "Why SHOULD I believe God?" People make the mistake of saying "never question God." What you DON'T question is God's authority--that is, if God instructs you to do something, you recognize that it is God that tells you to do it, then it is not your place to call that authority into question, but rather your duty to obey God's commands.

Look at it in scientific terms. Is the Law of Gravity true? How do you know? Do you have to test it to make sure? Or is it something you already know to be reliable? You can place faith in gravity. You can reason other scientific truths to be true by testing them. If you find something to be consistently true, you no longer have a need to test it. You may place faith in it.

There are no shortage of dangerous cults out there, and never have been, that operate by deceit and dishonest motives. "Prosperity gospel" takes in a LOT of victims because of its false promise. While not a "cult" per se, it is destructive. There are other groups which go to even worse extremes. So how do you know who to believe? So, you DO have to question. God expects us to do at least that much.

If, however, you can establish Biblical reliability and examine the evidence for faith yourself, you can establish a reasoned basis for that faith. If you can establish that on a fundamental level, you can discern other truths for yourself and place your faith in that truth. We walk by faith, but not BLIND faith.

OK. So pick one you'd like to discuss already! If you are right, then this shouldn't be too terribly difficult for you.

lets start here

Rested means ceased His task. It does not mean God was pooped.

ruveyn

Well according to bible gateway.com he was refreshed. wich means he was pooped
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Strictly for the goyim. Based on two things:

1. A bad translation from the Hebrew.
2. Ignorance of Jewish oral tradition.

TNKH (what you gentiles called the "old" testament) is a book by Jews for Jews. It is not for you gentiles.

ruveyn

Oh my. its not for me huh? thats so sad! if you're nose was up in the air anymore it might hit a commercial jet..

In any reguards, its doesnt really matter since my point is the bible cant be trusted. Its been malinged so bad who knows what it actually means? I know one thing. god had nothing to do with it.

Ok, good. Exodus 31:17 says "It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed." Nowhere in this verse does it say God was tired!

Isaiah 40:28--Do you not know? Have you not heard? Yahweh is the everlasting God, the Creator of the whole earth. He never grows faint or weary; there is no limit to His understanding.

Since Exodus 31:17 does not indicate that God grows tired, merely that He was "refreshed," there is no contradiction with Isaiah.

This is a good start. I'll pick the next one.


For the sake of brevity, I'm only going to use one verse pro and one verse con.

For pro, I'm picking the first one listed, from Lamentations, because Lamentations is a difficult book. What you need to understand about Lamentations, before we look at anything specific, is that it is a poetic book. Each chapter forms an acrostic of the alphabet, making it a very sophisticated and highly stylized book. So before I make any comments, you have to keep in mind that anything written in Lamentations is done so in a poetic style and interpreted appropriately in poetic language.

For the sake of context, I'm quoting this entire "Mem" section, verses 37-39--Who is there who speaks and it happens, unless the Lord has ordained it? Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High? Why should any living person complain, any man, because of the punishment for his sins?

What this is saying is that NOTHING happens unless God allows it to happen. For good or for evil, God is always in control.

Now, this does NOT mean that God is the author of evil that comes as the result of poor choices that WE make. Lamentations was written in the aftermath of the destruction of Judah with Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile. Jeremiah interpreted this destruction as the consequence of Israel breaking the covenant with God. In giving the covenant, God pronounced both blessings AND curses. Leviticus 26 is FULL of the blessings and curses related to breaking the covenant and pretty much describes the devastation of the entire nation of Israel by this time (Israel had already been destroyed some time before Judah) as described throughout Lamentations. Leviticus 26 is one clear example of the "adversity and good" that come from His mouth. God did not cause the enemies of His people to be evil. Their rejection of God and His ways made them that way. Evil, according to the Bible, comes from Satan; and people have the ability to resist that evil if they want to.

For my con, I'll choose James 1:13, which is also from a difficult book of the Bible.

A quick note on the context of James--James was an early church leader in Jerusalem and the half-brother of Jesus. James, having been so close to Jesus most of his life, was probably among the last of Jesus' circle to come to faith. When James writes, he is writing to the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem.

James 1:13-15--No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.

Now, according to Lamentations, God blesses those who keep His commands (keeping the covenant) AND punishes those who willingly and willfully fail to do so. Lamentations also affirms who the real responsibility lies with for sin when it says "Why should any living person complain..." James concurs when he shows the progression of sin when a person "is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires."

And, thus, no contradiction at all.

Yes it is a contradiction. If you rest, and are refreshed that means you are tired.
because if you never grow faint or weary you wouldnt need to rest

your looking at it through your religion. so of course you arent going to see anything