I no longer believe

Page 5 of 13 [ 199 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 13 Next

Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 756
Location: Baltimore County

31 Jan 2011, 11:57 am

As regards a Scriptural basis for doubting, there's the conversation in John 11...the account of the raising of Lazarus. Martha is grieving her brother and can't help but question and doubt and even accuse Jesus a little. Jesus doesn't reprimand her for it but very gently answers her doubts; she makes a confession of faith fully equal to Peter's; she doubts again and Jesus answers her again. So often that's how it goes - doubt and answer and more doubt.

******

"Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus...when he came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary sat in the house.
"Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. And even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you.'
"Jesus said to her, 'Your brother will rise again.'
"Martha said to him, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.'
"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?'
"She said to him, 'Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.'
...
"Jesus said, 'Take away the stone.'
"Martha said to him, 'Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.'
"Jesus said to her, 'Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?'
"So they took away the stone."

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

31 Jan 2011, 4:26 pm

Good one -

I would not have thought of that but it is a perfect example.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 6:01 pm

91 wrote:

I like the biblical nature of what you are saying. Like I said before, it is supposed, for the mot part. However the interpretation that is beings used, is a little skewed. When I was taught exergesis the result had to be in keeping with; the logical makeup of God, the concept of free will and most importantly, the sacrifice of Chist. The reason that I cannot accept you interpretation is that it would allow for innocent people to go to hell. This outcome would not be compatible with a just or a loving God, it would not respect the individuals free will (since was not utalised in a choice) nor can I imagine Christ on a cross suffering for the sins of only the lucky.

Unfortunately, I can't just believe things based on pure speculation.

And it's clear that you worship a god that suits your own standards (not necessarily the God of the Bible). Which is really not that bad. Better to worship the god that you worship anyway.

Quote:

As to the concept of justification. The Catholic Church does not seek salvation by works. It is by grace that we are saved, but one must also attempt to live a good life. Like I said, most mainline protestant denominations are fine with the Catholic doctrine on the subject. A good deal of them have signed ecumenical statements on the subject. The Catholic view relates to the preservation of grace, through a life in the Holy Spirit, not justification through works. The Lutherans also support this view.

Just goes to show how most religious organizations are more political by nature than they are religious.

Yes, Roman Catholicism preaches salvation by grace through faith + works, but that only goes to show that their definition of "grace" is different from that in the Paulean Epistles. That's also why they don't understand the Biblical meaning of justification and sanctification.

In the Bible, grace and works are mutually exclusive. Just as you can't say that a triangle can be a square at the same time, you can't say that one is saved by grace through one's faith and works. Either it's God who saved you or your righteousness that saved you.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 6:06 pm

Natty_Boh wrote:

To clarify - faith needs to constantly engage the intellect: there's no point at which we can stop and say "I know enough. I do not need to know anything further." Doubts and seeking the answers to those doubts can drive the process; undoubting faith that results in a continual desire to know more can drive the process. But either way God means for us to use our intellect, to understand for ourselves what we are about and why. I don't know of any Scripture offhand that gives that idea as such, but isn't that why the letters of the New Testament were written; for instruction (not just correction, those poor "stupid Galatians!")?

For a bit of my own story, I'm a "revert". Never formally separate from the Church but pretty darned lax about living the life until God tapped me on the shoulder, so to speak, to get my attention. I know exactly what that feeling MCalavera describes is; and I know that it does pass. (One convert described it as God holding us by the hands until we're able to take a few steps on our own.) For me, it was long gone by the time I nearly threw everything away - faith, God, all of it - in disgust over the latest chapter of the sex abuse scandal. I didn't do that; instead I forced myself to get up and go to weekday Mass even though that wasn't my normal habit and it was the absolute last thing I had any desire to do. I would define faith as that - that raw knowledge of God that was there even when everything in me wanted to turn and run. And I'd say that my faith is the stronger for having had that experience and having been forced to make that explicit choice.

That sounds like the kind of faith that an abused wife has in her husband no matter how badly he continues to abuse her.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 6:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Natty_Boh wrote:

I don't know of any Scripture offhand that gives that idea as such, but isn't that why the letters of the New Testament were written; for instruction (not just correction, those poor "stupid Galatians!")?

Jesus quoted Moses when He said the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, and your strength." So that makes TWO places in the Bible that say the same thing. So there you have it: Love God with all your MIND.

So you love God with ALL your mind and heart and soul and whatever else you've got in you?

I doubt it. You're a limited being after all.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 6:12 pm

Philologos wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Is there any Scripture to support claims that doubt/questioning are normal and/or healthy parts of being a Christian?

Not that I know of. In fact, the Bible links faith to assurance - assurance of things we can't see.

Quote:

I thought certainty in one's convictions and complete faith was what made a good Christian.

Maybe. I personally have yet to meet one. I had several Christian "brothers" confess to me that they, too, had doubts about their faith. And not one Christian has ever denied (to me) that he had doubts about his faith. Even Natty, our dear fellow member, admits that it's normal (and she's a Christian).

You could find scripture - starting from I believe - help my unbelief -.But if you are a Didymoid, as I am, you don't need scripture, it just is. EVERYTHING is constantly reexamined in light of incoming data. I have known some - my late mother-in-law - a definite non-questioner, she got there, it was, she did not poke at it. I have known others who could just decide on a topic and hold it firm. Me, I am now as I have always been a skeptic - look and check. Tonight, 2 + 2 = 4 [to ten significant figgers]. Ask me again tomorrow. I expect it to be the same, but we will see.

Admittedly, that's a very good way of looking at things. But how it made you become a Christian with such an outlook is still beyond me.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 6:18 pm

NobelCynic wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

One reason I'm here is to also learn - learn about why I believed the way I believed when I was a Christian and why I believe differently now...

I don't think you are going to find that here because the answer is within yourself, not in other peoples beliefs.

There have been three topics on mysticism in this forum in as many months and it seems clear from them that few people know what it is or are interested in finding out. The first objective of a mystic is to know yourself and this is done by a process called “recollection” which begins with meditation.

Evelyn Underhill wrote:

Now turn this new purified and universalised gaze back upon yourself. Observe your own being in a fresh relation with things, and surrender yourself willingly to the moods of astonishment, humility, joy—perhaps of deep shame or sudden love—which invade your heart as you look. So doing patiently, day after day, constantly recapturing the vagrant attention, ever renewing the struggle for simplicity of sight, you will at last discover that there is something within you—something behind the fractious, conflicting life of desire—which you can recollect, gather up, make effective for new life. You will, in fact, know your own soul for the first time: and learn that there is a sense in which this real You is distinct from, an alien within, the world in which you find yourself, as an actor has another life when he is not on the stage.

Underhill, Evelyn "Practical Mysticism" Chapter IV

You might want to try it.

Thanks, but I'm perfectly happy with my current beliefs and outlook. Mysticism is just like any religion in which logic is always subject to superstitious/spiritual beliefs. I don't plan to go there no more.

NobelCynic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Age: 77
Gender: Male
Posts: 600
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.

31 Jan 2011, 10:18 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Thanks, but I'm perfectly happy with my current beliefs and outlook.

I suspected that, but I wanted to consider the possibility that you were telling the truth about your reasons for participating in this debate, unlikely as that was. If you were, you might have been interested in my suggestion.

Alas, you are still playing the same game you used to play as a Christian, aren't you? You just changed teams, thats all.

_________________
NobelCynic (on WP)
My given name is Kenneth

Natty_Boh
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 756
Location: Baltimore County

31 Jan 2011, 10:47 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Natty_Boh wrote:

That sounds like the kind of faith that an abused wife has in her husband no matter how badly he continues to abuse her.

No. It's the kind of faith that sees any wife and husband past those first newlywed months. Soon or late, the warm romantic feelings fade and that first argument happens - and if the marriage was only ever about the infatuation, what then? Divorce court, with each party placing all the blame on the other and refusing to look at themselves? My earlier discursion on the Apostles, etc, was in aid of the point that faith doesn't stay warm and fuzzy and pleasant, and it's unrealistic to expect that it will. Not many of us encounter the extremes that they did, of course; but it's just as true that we can't skate through on the strength of emotion alone.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 11:00 pm

NobelCynic wrote:

Alas, you are still playing the same game you used to play as a Christian, aren't you? You just changed teams, thats all.

Of course it's a game! Secularists get to have fun showing religious people how ridiculous their religious beliefs and fantasies are.

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

31 Jan 2011, 11:03 pm

Natty_Boh wrote:

Ok ... keep telling yourself that, Natty.

Have you met your white knight in shining armor (besides Jesus, I mean)?

91
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,063
Location: Australia

31 Jan 2011, 11:06 pm

If your looking for scripture relating to perseverance and doubt. Try the Psalms. You will not have to go far into it to find reassurance.

_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Last edited by 91 on 31 Jan 2011, 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Natty_Boh
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 756
Location: Baltimore County

31 Jan 2011, 11:07 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Natty_Boh wrote:

Ok ... keep telling yourself that, Natty.

Have you met your white knight in shining armor (besides Jesus, I mean)?

So Hans Christian Anderson is a psychologist now?

Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

31 Jan 2011, 11:09 pm

LKL wrote:

What got me was learning, in Sunday school, that people born in non-Christian countries were all going to hell for not being Christian. At first I thought I must have misunderstood, and started asking questions... that was when the teacher told me to shut up (in a nice way, of course).

That actually isn't what the Bible says. The Bible says in multiple places that those who never hear the word won't have that held against them and will be judged by a different standard. only those who hear the word and reject it are in any trouble. I'd quote some passages for you, but the Bible is a big book and I don't have those particular passages memorized: they're all over the place and hard to pinpoint. but they are there.

simon_says
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075

31 Jan 2011, 11:17 pm

There are plenty of people who will have heard the bible's message and yet rejected it to adhere to the traditional religion of their homeland. The majority of people everywhere accept the majority religion of their homeland. Tradition is a strong draw.

To suggest that some young woman be tortured for eternity simply because she is raised in a certain culture by her family, hearing the gospel once or twice from some fevered stranger on a street corner is just bizarre and does not meet modern standards of justice.

As with many aspects of biblical morality, modern moral thought is often superior to bronze age notions of justice.

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

31 Jan 2011, 11:23 pm

"But how it made you become a Christian with such an outlook is still beyond me."

Well, naturally. If I talked from now till next January nonstop I could not communicate all the data and processing. Same way I cannot comprehend how my paleontologist brother - who has, for all the differences between us, a good head and an unwillingness to bow down to falsehood even where it could enhance his position - can sit on the seat where he is. I cannot work from his pile of data, nor with his head.

Frankly, this time of year in 1986 it would have mystified me too. Missing vital data,

Give you a very applicable analogy. In my field there was a very knotty problem, stumped a few very good minds [my PhD supervisor had a crack at it, got nowhere. I worked on it 1964-1974, collecting data, looking at parallels in other languages, making no progress. Well, about this time in 1974, I reached the tipping point. Sitting at home thinking over some newly in data, thde hypothesis popped - THIS is how it works. I spend the next four months going over all the data, checking, working it out, finding where it needed fine tuning.

The 1986 incident followed exactly the same pattern - a tipping point in the data, and a lot that had NOT made sense did.

I do think, looking at postings here, that I was lucky in that came out of an environment where Christianity was never talked about. I did not have to get rid of misinformation.

Page 5 of 13 [ 199 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 13 Next

Jump to:

I no longer believe Post Reply New Topic

I no longer believe