So a Beck

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I don't think one's faith makes them more or less trustworthy. Plenty of Christians lie, thinking they can easily ask for forgiveness later. The atheists I know have a strong sense of morality. Of course, their principals vary because of different experiences, opinions, and upbringings. However, it's no more diverse than the spectrum of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews.

That's why I said if it was the only information I had to go off of and I had no other information.

So you think fear of a deity is the only reason people keep their word? It seems your theory falls flat on it's face as fear of God surely doesn't stop Christians from breaking thier marriage oath by cheating on their wife/husband.

You are so full of it you make me sick. Stop giving absurd rationalizations for the fact that you are bigoted against atheists and think we are untrustworthy. It pisses me off.

I'm aware that you said that, but it's still a ridiculous double standard. As for the thing about atheists not having a higher power to answer to and therefore having the comfort of not being restricted by that, it's a two way street. The religious also have the comfort of knowing that as long as they repent they can clean their slate just like that. My life in this world is all I have, so if I f**k up then I can't clean my slate that easily. Sure I can live my life without having to rigidly adhere to some rules in a book, but I also don't have a God to pray to when the s**t hits the fan. When the s**t hits the fan, I don't have the comfort of knowing that God will bail me out of it or that heaven is promised to me.

And I believe empathy is inherent to social beings, so it's not that religion makes people moral but that it appeals to their sense of morality which already exists . That's why you can't change a sociopath.

@ marshall: Exactly just cuz people are religious doesn't mean they are automatically gonna be sacrosanct about the rules of the book. Most people who have religious affiliations are casual about their religiosity and are usually religious cuz they grew up with it. And plus a lot of criminals are religious so the idea of religion guaranteeing that people will treat the rules of their religion as sacrosanct is BS.

I've heard of crooks attending church then after that going about their usual business and committing crimes as if they completely forgot about what their religion has taught em. And those same crooks not only repent, but also pray to God to bail em out of whatever consequences they're facing for their actions or that they pray that their crime goes well. Religion does not guarantee people will change their pattern of thought. That is purely up to the individual and is regardless of whether they're atheist or religious.

To be fair religion does acknowledge that humans are inherently prone to sinning, but I find it ridiculous that the religious can acknowledge this yet put religious affiliation on a moral pedestal.

Marshall to Inuyasha saith:

Stop giving absurd rationalizations for the fact that you are bigoted against atheists and think we are untrustworthy.

I will just poke me little nose in and point out -

Whether or not anyone else is bigoted against atheists, I am not. I have been there and know what it is like.

In those days I was not bigoted against theists. Some of my best friends, and, if truth be told, I often envied them and wished I could be dumb enough to think there was something else in the universe.

I do not now think atheists more untrustworthy on average than the average. Nor have I any reason to think that atheists are more trustworthy.

I do know this:

Of two otherwise identical people I know - big idea strong will hotheads both - the one of the two who is Christian will back down from a position, will try to hear the other instead of talking him down. Not so the atheist one.

He's definitely not bigoted against atheists. He's even said I'm one of the more rational atheists and he has acknowledged rational liberals exist. The problem is that he's just putting way too much weight on the sacrosanctness of oaths and religious rules.

I'm saying if it were the only thing I had to go on. With the way I pay attention to politics, I'd probably know quite a bit about whom was running to make judgements based on their past history.

I just heard Beck say the riots in Egypt are the beginning of the New World Order. He said we can call him crazy if we want. I choose to.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well considering there is potentially unrest in several other countries now, Beck may be right.

And is that necessarily a bad thing? Is the potential of having free government in the Middle East worse than the kleptocracy running most of the countries in that region? What Beck is playing up is this rampant Anti-Muslim/Anti-Arab hysteria that he and his ilk have made their bread and butter.
And by the way, Muslims and Christians are joining together to oust Mubarak - hardly sounds like fanatical Muslims out to destroy Christianity.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

As do I. When my Israeli friends & family seem concerned, then I will be concerned. At present, it's just a situation to monitor.

Uh, when have you last talked to them, because Israel isn't exactly considering this to be all sunshine and lollipops right now.

Today, on Facebook. Life is going on. No one is stopping life to panic. Have you ever been to Israel? It's rarely sunshine and lollipops, but they are good at monitoring situations and getting through it without causing hysteria. Our media makes everyone panic. That's why I prefer their news sources, not ours.

I have a friend in Israel, and I don't use facebook, so contact is sporadic. He was here when I was in high school, my mom knew his mom from way back.

Israelis aren't prone to panicking but I don't think they believe the situation will turn out to be good.

Oaths are very debatable. You will recall that Yeshu' Naggara had a few things to say, on account of which at least the Mennonites and Quakers have historically had a lot of trouble with authorities.

At least for the Christian, oaths are a sociopolitical thing, not part of religion.

Consider the wording : I swear to tell the truth ....SO HELP ME GOD.

This is not like, for example, the essentially pagan oath which is a conditional curse - if I am lying may God strike me dead, that sort of thing.

The former is not a conditional self curse, but rather more than anything else a prayer for help getting the account straight.

The sanctions against oath breaking - from a Christian standpoint - come from the state, not God.