A Message for Jews

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Actually, based on previous performance, I had assumed he was not so much targeting any one set as firing out a long series of "outreaches", slanting each toward a particular audience. He is remarkably catholic in his tarfet practice.

But this is not, I should think, a place to seek to convert Jews to Muslims, or Tories to Commies, or Freethinkers to TeaPartheids, or base metals to gold. Discussion by all means, civilized debate of course, but down off the soapbox and I would be happier with less mockery.

Speeches, lectures, editorials, sermons or whatever else of the such are just part of life here in PPR. The only real taboo here is flaming, such as when publicly voicing opinion about and/or discussing other WP members. A good rain can occasionally flush the sandbox, but flames can cause personal harm ... and none of us would ever want that, eh?!

Chill ... please.

Why not?


Gen 49:10 has nothing to do with Jesus.


Ps. 132:11 refers to Solomon
Isaiah: looks to me like some wishful thinking, but still nothing to do with Jesus.


I can see why Luke and John would have set Bethlehem as Jesus' birthplace in their stories. I doubt that Micah was thinking about Jesus.


Obviously not true.


There is absolutely no link between "Rachel crying for her children" and the babies killed after Jesus' birth, which probably didn't happen.


Hos 11.1 has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

The list is much too long to continue refuting every detail. Nor am I a great Bible scholar. But anyone should be able to read the passage, maybe look up some background material, and decide whether or not the passage had any link to Jesus. So far, none of it does.

Correction duly noted. Since Isaiah wrote over 2500 years ago modern advances in reproductive technology have no relevance to biblical quotes. And what I said about Is. 7:14 still holds. It is mistranslated in the KJV.


the Hebrew word for virgin is different from the Hebrew word for a marriageable young woman who might or might not be a virgin. b'tualah vs almah respectively.

ruveyn

But, wouldn't a "marriageable young woman" be a virgin? Who would want to marry a non-virgin? Yuck!

A-hem.

Pandabear, do you REALLY want to go there?

Maybe she was a widow. Maybe she was divorced.

ruveyn

Well, okay. I guess that adding either a widow or a divorced woman to one's harem would be fine.

It is rather interesting how many English translations actually use the word "virgin." If you look through here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... on=NIV1984

...they ALL do.

It would take some time to read through Isaiah to see what is really going on. Reading around Isaiah 7:14

Trying to say that any of this had anything at all to do with Jesus would be quite a stretch. For one thing, Mary called her brat Jesus, and not Immanuel. Plus, the land of the two kings whom King Ahaz dreaded was laid to waste LONG before Jesus' time.

Somehow, within about 100 years after Jesus was crucified, it became important and significant that Jesus' mother be a virgin. This was never mentioned in any of Paul's writings (which form the earliest part of the new testament). It only comes up when the later gospels are written, and apparently the divinely-inspired author was using a poor Greek translation of Isaiah.

Here are some others from here:

http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
Note: I just now see the change of all "extras" only be downloadable through the main program after installation.

Isa 7:14

(BBE) For this cause the Lord himself will give you a sign; a young woman is now with child, and she will give birth to a son, and she will give him the name Immanuel.

(GNB) Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him 'Immanuel.'

(JPS) Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(The Scriptures (ISR)) “Therefore יהוה Himself gives you a sign: Look, the maiden conceives and gives birth to a Son, and shall call His Name Immanu’ĕl.

At least everyone agrees that the kid ain't named Jesus.

Ah, well, we can explain that.

First off, you can call it a poor Greek translation if you like, but pretty well all OT quotes in the NT are out of the Septuagint. This was an Alexandrian Jewish production [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint ].

According to the inerrant autographs of Wikipedia, "According to the record in the Talmud,

'King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher." God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did.'[8]

Hey, that is the TALMUD, folks. If you do not like the way it was translated, complain to God.

I note that in this passage THEY use parthenos - and if they were not thinking "virgin" they should not have used that word, and then Christians quoting Septuagint could not use Isaiah.

NO - do NOT ask me why Galileans and Judeans would be snipping text out of Alecandrian Greek. Surely Jesus must have been able to handle Hebrew - they have him reading in the synagogue. And we know Paul could.

Anyhow, on the name.

It is rather interesting as an indication of how things go. In Isaiah, Hebraice, it says "SHE will call." The Septuagint - working presumably from an unvocalized Hebrew text or one with a scribal variant, says "YOU will call." The Syriac Isaiah says "HE will be called. In both the Greek and the Syriac Matthew, the Isaiah quote says "THEY will call." Just as the Hebrew underlying the Septuagint "you will call" is very close in shape no cigar to the Masoretic "she will call", the Greek of the Septuagint "you will call" is only a vowel away from the NT "They will call".

So we got some scribal variation going, can happen to anyone. So - the NT guys havde the story, the angel tells Joseph "YOU will call him Jesus". Or, if you take off the Syriac, 'SHE - Mary - will call him Jesus." Whatever Then we quote Isaiah, which NOW says "They will call him Manny". And NOW there is no conflict, so long as SOMEBODY eventually calls him Emmanuel, which has happened every Christmas for quite a few years.

This is how these things things go.It may seem like some poor editing or proofing - but why hold Hick Galileans to a higher standard or editing and proofing that the Times [I don't care which Times, pick one]?

For reasons not unconnected with such data as the above, I for one tend NOT to build too much on prophecy - you do not want to ignore it, but it is notoriously multivalent and you interpret at your own risk.

The differences between Septuagint and the Masoretic text are not insignificant Septuagint well BCE; the Masoretic compilation well after..Could some differences be reactions against Christian and other undesirable readings? Perish the thought, scholars and theologians would nevefr do such a thing.

Still ... I looked up this : http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-6.htm : the passage in question in the Qumran Isaiah, an unvocalized text close enough in time that you don't figure anybody has a reason to pick uncontroversial readings.

This particuylar variant of the scipt is not real easy on myeyes, but it seemsd to say pretty much the same as the Masoretic - except it says "HE will call", and just who is THAT supposed to refer to? The Lord will call? Quien sabe?

Anyhow, interesting and fun to dig into. Enjoy.

In pronouncing his judgment against Satan, Jehovah revealed a new expression of his sovereignty, a means by which he would restore peace and order to all his realm. To Satan, God said: “I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Genesis 3:15) Thus Jehovah revealed that it was his purpose to empower a “seed” to crush Satan and his forces and to prove the rightfulness of His sovereignty. (Psalm 2:7-9; 110:1, 2)

In spite of Satan’s efforts to produce seeds, such as human rulers, Jehovah’s purpose moves forward. Through Abraham’s grandson Jacob, Jehovah revealed: “The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.” (Genesis 49:10) The term “Shiloh” means “He Whose It Is; He to Whom It Belongs.” Thus, these prophetic words indicated that there would come one who had the legal right to receive “the scepter,” or sovereignty, and “the commander’s staff,” or rulership, over “the peoples,” or all mankind. Who would this One be?

Of the descendants of Judah, the first one to be chosen by Jehovah to be king over his people was the shepherd David, son of Jesse. (1 Samuel 16:1-13) In spite of his sins and errors, David found favor with Jehovah because of his loyalty to Jehovah’s sovereignty.

Shedding more light on the Edenic prophecy, Jehovah made a covenant with David, saying: “I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom.” That would involve more than David’s son and successor, Solomon, for the covenant stated: “I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite.” That Davidic covenant made clear that the promised Kingdom “seed” would in time come through the family line of David as 2 Samuel 7:12, 13 indicates.

With David was started a dynasty of kings who were anointed with holy oil by the high priest. These kings could thus be called anointed ones, or messiahs. (1 Samuel 16:13; 2 Samuel 2:4; 5:3; 1 Kings 1:39) They were said to sit on Jehovah’s throne and rule as kings for Jehovah in Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 9:8) In that sense, the kingdom of Judah represented God’s Kingdom, an expression of Jehovah’s sovereignty. When the king and the people submitted to Jehovah’s sovereignty, they enjoyed His protection and blessing. The reign of Solomon was in particular a time of peace and prosperity beyond compare, providing a prophetic glimpse of the rule of God’s Kingdom when Satan’s influence will be completely removed and Jehovah’s sovereignty vindicated. (1 Kings 4:20, 25) Sadly, most of the kings in the Davidic line failed to measure up to Jehovah’s requirements, and the people fell into idolatry and immorality. Finally, Jehovah allowed the kingdom to be destroyed by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. Satan appeared to have gained the upper hand in his attempt to discredit Jehovah’s sovereignty.

The overthrow of the Davidic kingdom — and the earlier overthrow of the northern kingdom of Israel — furnished proof, not of any deficiency or failure of Jehovah’s sovereignty, but of the sorry consequences of Satan’s influence and man’s independence from God. (Proverbs 16:25; Jeremiah 10:23) To show that he was still exercising his sovereignty, Jehovah declared through the prophet Ezekiel: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this (the crown) also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) Those words indicate that the promised “seed,” the One “who [had] the legal right,” was yet to come.

Let us move forward to about the year 2 B.C.E. The angel Gabriel was sent to Mary, a virgin girl in Nazareth, a city of Galilee in northern Palestine. He declared: “Look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom.” — Luke 1:31-33. At last, the time for revealing “the sacred secret” had drawn near. The principal One of the promised “seed” was soon to appear. (Galatians 4:4; 1 Timothy 3:16) He would be bruised in the heel by Satan. But that “seed,” in turn, will bruise Satan’s head, putting him and all his cohorts out of action. He would also bear witness that by means of the Kingdom of God, all the damage done by Satan will be undone and Jehovah’s sovereignty vindicated. (Hebrews 2:14; 1 John 3:8)



Of His own accord, Jehovah established a covenant toward David for an everlasting kingdom. He said:

“Jehovah has told you that a house is what Jehovah will make for you. When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.” — 2 Samuel 7:1-16; 1 Chronicles 17:1-15.

David offered a prayer of gratitude and closed it, saying:

“And now, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah, you are the true God; and as for your words, let them prove to be truth, since you promise to your servant this goodness. And now take it upon yourself and bless the house of your servant for it to continue to time indefinite before you; for you yourself, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah, have promised, and due to your blessing let the house of your servant be blessed to time indefinite.” — 2 Samuel 7:18-29; 1 Chronicles 17:16-27.

That covenant promise to David was backed by God’s oath:

“Jehovah has sworn to David, truly he will not draw back from it: ‘Of the fruitage of your belly I shall set on your throne. If your sons will keep my covenant and my reminders that I shall teach them, their sons also forever Will sit upon your throne.’” — Psalm 132:11, 12.

“To time indefinite I shall preserve my loving-kindness toward him, and my covenant will be faithful to him. And I shall certainly set up his seed forever and his throne as the days of heaven. . . . I shall not profane my covenant, and the expression out of my lips I shall not change. Once I have sworn in my holiness, to David I will not tell lies. His seed itself will prove to be even to time indefinite, and his throne as the sun in front of me.” — Psalm 89:28-36. See also Jeremiah 33:20, 21.

According to that covenant toward King David, his kingdom had to furnish the basis for the coming kingdom of the Greater Messiah. That is why the prophet Isaiah, centuries later, was inspired to prophesy: “For a child is born to us, a son given to us, and the rulership is upon his shoulder; and his name is called: Wonder, Counselor, Strong God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; in order that the rulership may increase and there may be no end of peace upon the throne of David and in his kingdom; to rear it up and to support it through what is suitable and what is right from now on to forever. The zeal of the Eternal One of armies does such a thing.” — Isaiah 9:5, 6, according to the translation of the Hebrew scholar Rabbi Leopold Pheinkard Zunz, German, sixteenth edition of 1913 C.E.

According to the prophecy of Micah 5:1, this Messianic child was to be born, this royal son was to be given, at Bethlehem in Ephrathah in the territory of Judah. This place of human birth was to be one of the identifying marks of the true Messiah, the “seed” of God’s figurative “woman.” Bethlehem, and not the royal city of Jerusalem, was the birthplace of his ancestor, King David, and hence came to be called David’s city.



That's because the Bible was authored by Jehovah God and not by men. Micah, like the 39 other bible writers, was merely a secretary. Like any author Jehovah weaved a common theme into His Bible. The theme is the vindication of His right to rule humankind by means of His heavenly Kingdom. Jesus, of course, plays a key role in that heavenly Kingdom. When Jehovah inspired these 40 men to write His Bible, over a period of 1,600 years, prophecies concerning Jesus' future human existence and his role as mankind's savior were sprinkled throughout the Bible from the very beginning.

Back to Micah... A Roman ruler decreed that a census be taken. People were required to register at their town of origin. It appears that both Joseph and Mary had roots in Bethlehem, so Joseph took his pregnant wife there. (Luke 2:3) Mary gave birth in a humble stable, laying the baby in a manger. God then sent a multitude of angels to tell a group of shepherds on a hillside that the child just born was the promised Messiah, or Christ. (Luke 2:8-20)



Isaiah foretold that the Messiah, or Christ, would be born of a virgin. After describing the miraculous circumstances of Jesus’ birth, the apostle Matthew wrote: “All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: ‘Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son.’” (Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 7:14) Isaiah also foretold that Christ would be a descendant of David, specifically mentioning Jesse, David’s father. Jesus did indeed directly descend from David. (Matthew 1:6, 16; Luke 3:23, 31, 32) Thus, before the birth of Jesus, the angel Gabriel told Jesus’ mother, Mary: “God will give him the throne of David his father.” — Luke 1:32, 33; Isaiah 11:1-5, 10; Romans 15:12.



Jeremiah recorded prophecies that find fulfillment far in the future. He stated: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In Ramah a voice is being heard, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping over her sons. She has refused to be comforted over her sons, because they are no more.’” (Jer. 31:15) It appears that captive Jews assembled in the city of Ramah, some five miles [8 km] north of Jerusalem, after its devastation in 607 B.C.E. Some prisoners may even have been executed at Ramah. That may have occasioned an initial fulfillment, as if it were Rachel weeping over the loss of her “sons.” More than six centuries later, though, King Herod had infants of Bethlehem slaughtered. Gospel writer Matthew explained that Jeremiah’s words foretold the bitter reaction to that massacre. — Matthew 2:16-18.



During Alexander’s reign the city of Alexandria was founded, and after his death the country was ruled by the Ptolemies. In 312 B.C.E., Ptolemy I captured Jerusalem, and Judah became a province of Ptolemaic Egypt until 198 B.C.E. Then, in the long struggle with the Seleucid Empire in Syria, Egypt finally lost control of Palestine when Syrian King Antiochus III defeated the army of Ptolemy V. Thereafter Egypt gradually came more and more under the influence of Rome. In 31 B.C.E., in the decisive battle of Actium, Cleopatra deserted the fleet of her Roman lover Mark Antony, who was defeated by Octavius, grandnephew of Julius Caesar. Octavius proceeded to the conquest of Egypt in 30 B.C.E., and Egypt became a Roman province. It was to this Roman province that Joseph and Mary fled with the young child Jesus to escape Herod’s murderous decree, returning after the death of Herod, so that the words of Hosea, “out of Egypt I called my son,” were fulfilled. — Mt 2:13-15; Ho 11:1; compare Ex 4:22, 23. "My" is of course refering to Jehovah God, while "son" refers to Jesus.



Neither am I, but, as a bible student, I study a lot. I look up background material to ensure information is accurate. I try and use the Bible to answer questions instead of relying on worldly philosophies or my own interpretations. I let the scriptures interpret scriptures.

Let's look at this realistically:

Jesus Christ was born an infant, grew into childhood then grew into adulthood. If Jesus Christ had not been executed then he would have become an elderly man and eventually pass away from natural causes which indicates his mortality. There is no mortality associated with the God of the universe.

Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan in the wilderness (including Satan trying to bribe him by offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world). If Jesus Christ was truly God who created everthing in the universe there would be no point in Satan trying to bribe him with a few measly kingdoms because the God of the Universe has no need of monetary wealth.

Jesus Christ was human. He required sustenance (i.e. food, water, oxygen). The God of the Universe does not require sustenance.

Perhaps the most compelling evidence that Jesus was not God in the flesh was that Jesus Christ himself prayed to God the Father and knew that God the Father was superior to him when he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Christian doctrines are not based on "realistically".

Read up on the Doctrine of Incarnation.

Oy Vey

I concur. We can add an Oi moi for my father.