What is your opinion about the Holy Spirit?

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Natty_Boh
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28 Feb 2011, 1:37 pm

pandabear wrote:

Quoting Matthew 12 once more:

Quote:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

All you have to do is speak against the Holy Spirit once, and you're doomed.

And here I'd always thought that that (...) was a prooftext for Purgatory...

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Philologos
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28 Feb 2011, 1:37 pm

O great and indepandant guru, pray expound us precisely what form the scriptures say this "speaking against": takes?

leejosepho
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28 Feb 2011, 1:38 pm

pandabear wrote:

Quoting Matthew 12 once more:

Quote:

All you have to do is speak against the Holy Spirit once, and you're doomed.

No one can fault you or anyone for clinging to that kind of literal, legalistic comprehension, but, however, and/or as in "on the contrary" ...

NattyBoh gets the star for hitting "the spirit" of all of this quite well today.

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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28 Feb 2011, 1:43 pm

pandabear wrote:

Quoting Matthew 12 once more:

Quote:

All you have to do is speak against the Holy Spirit once, and you're doomed.

In other words... "believe me or burn in hell".

Yep... sounds reasonable.

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pandabear
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28 Feb 2011, 1:46 pm

Philologos wrote:

O great and indepandant guru, pray expound us precisely what form the scriptures say this "speaking against": takes?

Here is some more of Matthew 12, so that you may understand the context

Quote:

Then some people brought to Jesus a man who was blind and could not talk because he had a demon. Jesus healed the man, so that he was able to talk and see. The crowds were all amazed at what Jesus had done. "Could he be the Son of David?" they asked.

When the Pharisees heard this, they replied, "He drives out demons only because their ruler Beelzebul gives him power to do so."

Jesus knew what they were thinking, and so he said to them, "Any country that divides itself into groups which fight each other will not last very long. And any town or family that divides itself into groups which fight each other will fall apart. So if one group is fighting another in Satan's kingdom, this means that it is already divided into groups and will soon fall apart! You say that I drive out demons because Beelzebul gives me the power to do so. Well, then, who gives your followers the power to drive them out? What your own followers do proves that you are wrong! No, it is not Beelzebul, but God's Spirit, who gives me the power to drive out demons, which proves that the Kingdom of God has already come upon you. No one can break into a strong man's house and take away his belongings unless he first ties up the strong man; then he can plunder his house. Anyone who is not for me is really against me; anyone who does not help me gather is really scattering. For this reason I tell you: people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say; but whoever says evil things against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or ever."

Some Jews mistook the Holy Spirit for power granted by Beelzebul. Because of their mistake, they said something against the Holy Spirit, and ended up irrevocably damned for eternity.

Natty_Boh
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28 Feb 2011, 1:52 pm

No; it's Jesus expanding on the topic at considerable length. Go look up the account of the time Philip brought some Greeks to see Christ. Poor guy had no idea what he was getting into by doing that...this is another example of the kind.

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pandabear
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28 Feb 2011, 1:58 pm

But Jesus does say, quite clearly,

Quote:

"whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or ever."

I believe that your Catholic theology also considers this as the only unforgiveable sin.

Natty_Boh
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28 Feb 2011, 2:05 pm

pandabear wrote:

But Jesus does say, quite clearly,

Quote:

"whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or ever."

I believe that your Catholic theology also considers this as the only unforgiveable sin.

Right, but what you said does not follow from the text. I laid out for you what Catholicism considers that sin to be in practice; both Philologis and LeeJoseph (neither of them Catholic) agreed with the statement, so going by that sampling of Catholicism/"Nicenism"/öther", there seems to be something of a Christian consensus.

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Philologos
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28 Feb 2011, 2:15 pm

Panda -

I work with any NT text you can find on a daily basis in original language and translation daily.

I work with any OT text you sre likely to pull up on a weekly basis.

You really do not need to throw text at me; I do not want to shoot you up with texts in Greek, Latin and Syriac with references to variant readings and how Luther and the KJV committee and the Douay interpret them.

You STILL have not spoken to how one "speaks against"

Surely you are not doing this merely to be impishly obstreperous?

Philologos
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28 Feb 2011, 2:18 pm

Natty_Boh wrote:

pandabear wrote:

Quoting Matthew 12 once more:

Quote:

All you have to do is speak against the Holy Spirit once, and you're doomed.

And here I'd always thought that that (...) was a prooftext for Purgatory...

Interesting. Being raised in midchurch Anglicanism, even with a sidestepped Catholic wife and a lot of reading, I am not up on Purgation theory. I can see how it would be a useful rung in that footstool though.

pandabear
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28 Feb 2011, 2:36 pm

Philologos wrote:

You STILL have not spoken to how one "speaks against"

Certain Jews "spoke against" the Holy Spirit when they mistook him for the powers of Beelzebub.

Other ways of speaking against the Holy Spirit might include bearing false witness against him, saying he was anything other than totally awesome, etc.

leejosepho
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28 Feb 2011, 2:44 pm

pandabear wrote:

... speaking against the Holy Spirit might include bearing false witness against him, saying he was anything other than totally awesome, etc.

Ah, now maybe we can get somewhere ...

Natty? Phil?

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pandabear
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20 Mar 2011, 4:08 pm

Well? Does anyone else have anything to say about our good friend, the Holy Spirit?

Was he the one who impregnated that virgin, or was it God the Father?

ryan93
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20 Mar 2011, 4:49 pm

pandabear wrote:

Well? Does anyone else have anything to say about our good friend, the Holy Spirit?

Was he the one who impregnated that virgin, or was it God the Father?

A merry threesome, with joints and vodka for all?

It's not offensive if the people I'm talking about aren't real, right? :lol:

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hpcrowley
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20 Mar 2011, 5:04 pm

That poll takes no religious pluralism into account; many people believe in a "Higher Power", but differ in their view of such. Whether it's the Hindu Brahma, Islamic Allah, American Aboriginal Great Spirit, the post-modern Chaos, etc, believing in a "holy spirit" doesn't neccesarily mean believing in the Christian Holy Spirit.

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09 Dec 2011, 11:48 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BEIWjjUCPM[/youtube]
hmmmm................
WARNING may be offensive to religious folk. A couple of swears in there too.

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