Did Rome invent Christianity?

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JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 7:52 pm

ikorack wrote:

Judaism wasn't founded during nazi Germany. Analogies are never very far off the mark if you never question them.

I think it was meant as an absurdest analogy referring to the roman persecution of the christians.

Natty_Boh
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28 Feb 2011, 7:54 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

ikorack wrote:

Judaism wasn't founded during nazi Germany. Analogies are never very far off the mark if you never question them.

I think it was meant as an absurdest analogy referring to the roman persecution of the christians.

That was how I took it. Don't think it was meant to be all that in-depth, just to make the point. (That said, yes, surely there are other analogical examples out there.)

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ikorack
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28 Feb 2011, 8:10 pm

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 8:17 pm

ikorack wrote:

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

no Hitler would be required to convert to Judaism and make it the religion of the 3rd Reich which would then have to rule Europe for 500 years.
to make the analogy work out.

-Jake

MCalavera
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28 Feb 2011, 8:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Is that a mistyped equal sign, or an arrow?
One thing might lead to another, but the words are hardly synonymous.

Fine by me.

MCalavera
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28 Feb 2011, 9:04 pm

leejosepho wrote:

So then, are you asking Ruveyn where he got those ideas? If so, I would guess those ideas only appear in relation to today's Christianity.

Right. I'm sure the Apostles didn't have a disagreement concerning Jesus Christ's nature regardless of what they believed about him. The Christological issues seem to have started appearing later on.

As for faith vs. works, James was confusing, that's a given. But I think he wasn't trying to express disagreement with Paul. More like he was trying to clarify to the target readers what faith is.

Tensu
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28 Feb 2011, 9:32 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

ikorack wrote:

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

no Hitler would be required to convert to Judaism and make it the religion of the 3rd Reich which would then have to rule Europe for 500 years.
to make the analogy work out.

-Jake

I don't remember Caligula or Nero ever converting to Christianity... :roll:

JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 9:46 pm

Tensu wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

ikorack wrote:

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

no Hitler would be required to convert to Judaism and make it the religion of the 3rd Reich which would then have to rule Europe for 500 years.
to make the analogy work out.

-Jake

I don't remember Caligula or Nero ever converting to Christianity... :roll:

back to the crazy subjunctive drawing board.
so Hitler would have to survive
the Nazis would have to take over Europe.
and about 299 years and 53 some odd fuhrers later
this would be in the year 2232
one of them converts to Judaism and make it the religion of the third Reich.
to make the analogy work out perfectly.
:lol:

Tensu
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28 Feb 2011, 10:19 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Tensu wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

ikorack wrote:

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

no Hitler would be required to convert to Judaism and make it the religion of the 3rd Reich which would then have to rule Europe for 500 years.
to make the analogy work out.

-Jake

I don't remember Caligula or Nero ever converting to Christianity... :roll:

You are very good at missing the point completely.

The point is that for many years being a Christian was a death sentence in rome. Christians where rounded up and executed in mass simply for being Christians. Rome blamed all of it's problems on the Christians. This is very similar to the way the Nazis treated the Jews.

No analogy works out perfectly because no two different things are really exactly alike. If they were they would not be different and thus it would not be an analogy. :roll:

ikorack
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28 Feb 2011, 10:23 pm

None of that goes against the arguments put forth in this thread

JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 10:26 pm

Tensu wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Tensu wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

ikorack wrote:

The arguments addressed Christian persecution under roman authority, so yes my criticism of the analogy is justified. It does not hold up within the context of this thread.

no Hitler would be required to convert to Judaism and make it the religion of the 3rd Reich which would then have to rule Europe for 500 years.
to make the analogy work out.

-Jake

I don't remember Caligula or Nero ever converting to Christianity... :roll:

I know I was just having a go at ikorack's demanding analogical exactness.

-Jake

Tensu
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28 Feb 2011, 10:27 pm

ikorack wrote:

None of that goes against the arguments put forth in this thread

If Christianity was invented by Rome, why did the Romans kill Christians en masse? If Christianity was invented by rome, why does it denounce so many things fundamental to roman culture?

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28 Feb 2011, 10:29 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

emtyeye wrote:

My source on this is a Biblical scholor who is fluent in Greek.

No it isn't. Your source is a hack. Too many speculations.

Quote:

What is your source for believing that Messianic Jews wrote the NT? There is no evidence for that that I have ever seen. And the story in the NT is the antithesis of what the messianic jews were alll about: that a militaristic messiah would come and help them defeat the Romans, not "give unto ceasar".

Umm... I think he really meant a certain subset of Messianic Jews. That being said, the NT was really written by Paul and Christians after the fact. The Gospels were not written by witnesses.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary (online) gives this as one definition of gospel (evangelize):
"In military matters, "to evangelize" is to bring news of the outcome of a military engagement, usually a victory. as in 1 Sam 31:9, 2 Sam 18:31, 1 Kings 1:42."

Please provide a source to support your claim that the NT was written by Paul. Thanks.

Last edited by emtyeye on 28 Feb 2011, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sufi
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28 Feb 2011, 10:32 pm

hesitantly jumping in here.
I am no scholar, no theologist, I don't talk or think so good, and I am an atheist.
I don't pretend to even understand a quarter of the philosophical debates.

No one has mentioned Constantine the Great. Although a lot of controversy surround him, as I understand it, he was the first emperor to convert to christianity and ended the persecution of the christians in Rome and moved the his capital to Constantinople.

Quote:

Constantine reversed the persecutions of his predecessor, Diocletian, and issued the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious tolerance of Christians throughout the empire.

The foremost general of his time, Constantine defeated the emperors Maxentius and Licinius during civil wars. He also fought successfully against the Franks, Alamanni, Visigoths, and Sarmatians during his reign – even resettling parts of Dacia which had been abandoned during the previous century. Constantine also transformed the ancient Greek colony of Byzantium into a new imperial residence, Constantinople, which would be the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire for over one thousand years.

Also it was not until 1054 and the Great Schism which divided the church into the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox religions, at which time the Catholics established themselves in Rome.

So,