Theism and Explanation

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BurntOutMom
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04 Apr 2011, 7:20 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

I think the idea would probably be that scientists would undermine theistic intuitions through scientific study, show the poor fit of God as a hypothesis to reality, and explain more things without God. A deductive proof won't be forthcoming from scientists though. I just made a guess though, as I have not read the book. I do know that a good number of the people in the book are known atheists though.

If it's your sort of thing, you should read it. I love science, religion, and anything that makes me think really... That book inspired a lot of thinking.

And... If I want to think outside the box about God, I don't go to a person of faith.... I go to an atheist or an agnostic. Maybe half of the religious people I know can tell you why they believe what they believe, most atheists know exactly why they don't and have studied it before discrediting it. (not all, but most) The Pew Forum Study showed pretty much the same thing.

But then, I also don't believe in any one religion.

Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 7:37 pm

BurntOutMom wrote:

If it's your sort of thing, you should read it. I love science, religion, and anything that makes me think really... That book inspired a lot of thinking.

I might look into it, as I do recognize a lot of the thinkers as good, but... something about the title and marketing really really really brings up a bad intuitive vibe. Too pop. I often hate popular writings.

Quote:

And... If I want to think outside the box about God, I don't go to a person of faith.... I go to an atheist or an agnostic. Maybe half of the religious people I know can tell you why they believe what they believe, most atheists know exactly why they don't and have studied it before discrediting it. (not all, but most) The Pew Forum Study showed pretty much the same thing.

Well... the other issue is that it is sometimes very very very difficult to find a person of religion who has thought about it, who isn't just an apologist. Maybe it is just the circles I run into, but I run into a lot of fundamentalists, and often they aren't worth the conversation. After all, their entire method is to argue for their narrow box, and why it is natural, obvious, and how everything but that is a failure. Then while in the narrow box, to argue about inane elements that they can openly discuss while in that box. Neither interests me or is of much value to me. I think a liberal religion-ist with a more theological bent might be helpful though, but those are often very hard to find. I mean, maybe some in a UU congregation, but I don't know how to find one. I would bet that some atheists would be helpful though, at least those willing to explore just for the hell of it.

Master_Pedant
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04 Apr 2011, 8:10 pm

I have an uber-parsimonious explanation for how leejosepho quit drinking after he started thinking that he was interacting with Jesus. He substituted the addiction of alcoholism for the addiction of religion.

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 8:13 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Well, I think addiction substitution is valid.

Even further, you probably stole this from Family Guy, meaning that it *has to be* right.

leejosepho
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04 Apr 2011, 8:20 pm

blunnet wrote:

Your quitting drinking proves nothing about your claim of God.

Where did you get the idea I had quit? Maybe you missed this ...

"Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity."

blunnet wrote:

... there is no need to prove anything about you ...

Agreed.

blunnet wrote:

the real issue I see here is there is no actual mechanism to justify your position ...

First, I have no "position". I am here only to make one simple point:

leejosepho wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

What principles are just and fair to use to argue that something is explained by powers that are not dependent or emergent from natural laws?

Can men do it?

blunnet wrote:

... claims from experience are questionable ...

Would you be willing to hear the entire story before drawing your conclusion? But of course, I do understand you would not since your mind is already made up.

blunnet wrote:

... so the burden of proof is solely on your part.

You mistake me for someone who has something to prove ... and I am only suggesting my personal experience suggests "the God of the gap" or whatever just might actually be plausible while we might all yet wait for "science" to prove there is none.

blunnet wrote:

... you are saying there isn't any answer but God, while, apparently, you seem to be ignoring and rejecting other plausible natural factors that need to be examined ...

Oh no, I have asked for them to be presented ... and not one of them so far has even come close to anything plausible in my own case.

blunnet wrote:

... you seemed to be providing a fair level of certainty with your case.

Absolutely. There is no room for doubt following a thorough investigation ...

... and welcome to WP!

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Last edited by leejosepho on 04 Apr 2011, 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Master_Pedant
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04 Apr 2011, 8:20 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Well, I think addiction substitution is valid.

Even further, you probably stole this from Family Guy, meaning that it *has to be* right.

What the hell makes you think I stole that from Family Guy? I was more thinking Marx and his "Opiate" comments.

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 8:26 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

What the hell makes you think I stole that from Family Guy? I was more thinking Marx and his "Opiate" comments.

That your comment paralleled a comment in an episode of Family Guy that I didn't think luck was the best explanation. That's what the hell would make me think that.

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04 Apr 2011, 8:28 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

What the hell makes you think I stole that from Family Guy? I was more thinking Marx and his "Opiate" comments.

That your comment paralleled a comment in an episode of Family Guy that I didn't think luck was the best explanation. That's what the hell would make me think that.

What was the comment? Was it from the episode where Meg Griffin became an evangelical Christian thanks to Kirk Cameron (the "Brian The Atheist" episode)?

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 8:35 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

What was the comment? Was it from the episode where Meg Griffin became an evangelical Christian thanks to Kirk Cameron (the "Brian The Atheist" episode)?

I don't remember, but the parallel was uncanny.

The episode was the one where Peter and Brian go to an AA meeting after getting drunk in a movie theater. If you saw it, you wouldn't have to guess at what it might be, as it would be *that* obvious. I think you can still watch it on hulu: http://www.hulu.com/watch/207926/family ... of-peter-g

leejosepho
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04 Apr 2011, 8:35 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Yes, but then they get all frustrated when my actual experience blows their theories!

The problem is that we are questioning your interpretation of your experiences ...

... even though I am merely reporting facts and not interpreting them?! Simply said:

1) I had a desire to stop drinking forever;
2) I could not leave the stuff alone;
3) I heard about a man who knew of a solution;
4) I walked into a police station smoking a joint and asked to be locked up so I could sober up and go see that man;
5) That man told me to do what anyone can read about in "Alcoholics Anonymous", the book ...

"Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power [to deliver], Thy Love [in provision], and Thy Way of life [in right (Torah) fellowship and worship]." (part of Step Three prayer)

Those are the hard and simple facts, and now I no longer have to drink.

Any questions?

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Master_Pedant
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04 Apr 2011, 8:41 pm

AG, YOU ARE A MONSTER!! !!

The video can only be viewed in the United States.

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 8:42 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Except that those facts don't make it so straight-forward that God did this. You stated earlier that you were just reporting facts when you said God did this. In any case, the suspicion still goes up because you were engaging a method, that method has standard results due to the engagement of certain psychological mechanisms, which suggests a psychological reasoning could be at play here. I don't see how you'd reject that, as Bethie suggested the same point, and you admitted it as possible. I think it becomes more probable because any theistic structure that can make sense of all of this kind of stuff would end up being rather schizophrenic in its nature because of all of the aberrations.

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04 Apr 2011, 8:43 pm

leejosepho wrote:

How do you know that it wasn't the addictive exhilaration of believing that Jesus's love was flowing through you, rather than the actual existence of God, was the cause of your sobering.

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leejosepho
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04 Apr 2011, 8:45 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Other than the parts about me quitting, interacting with Jesus or religion, you have actually come much closer than anyone else here so far ...

"'... I know I must get along without liquor, but how can I? Have you a sufficient substitute?'
"Yes, there is a substitute and it is vastly more than that ..." ("A.A.", the book, page 152).

... and that "substitute" is the "right fellowship and worship" I mentioned in an earlier post here.

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Master_Pedant
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04 Apr 2011, 8:48 pm

Well, Brian was talking about AA rather than Christianity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOmwHKSEJQ[/youtube]

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Apr 2011, 8:51 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Well, Brian was talking about AA rather than Christianity.

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOmwHKSEJQ[/youtube]

So? Doesn't change the sheer degree of similarity between the two quotes, especially since AA is explicitly spiritualist.

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