Over-extended Feminism

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Yes but you have the choice which is really all anyone is entitled to. That and protection from the malicious intent of others. It's not shortsighted at all, after all what is the alternative, make it illegal to have preferences in how others behave? Legalized counter gender roles? Illegalize makeup?

If you want widespread elimination of makeup your entitled to espouse such things in the public forum, but thats really it.

You're not getting it. I can't get the same jobs sans make-up that I could get with the vile stuff caked on. That's not giving me much of a choice, nor does the law protect me from job discrimination based on my unwillingness to wear make-up.

Yes, legal choice is important but the social ramifications of going against the grain are just as important.

Yes it is? Your statements imply there are jobs you can get without make up. And it isn't the laws job to protect you from your own choices, minorities are protected legally because they can't change the traits that make them discriminated against. You can change the trait in question and that makes it your problem.



Yes they are important but they have no business being controlled by the law. To do so would be as vile as making the burka a legally required garment in public for women, just with different values.

So long story short, you won't get sent to jail for not shaving your legs or wearing makeup, etc-
but it's a-ok for society to ostracize you for not taking the time, trouble, and physical pain to look a certain way, as a woman.




Oh! And the only way to bring about social change is through...the legal system.





/end sarcasm

I never said there should be a law protecting women that don't wear make-up. I don't know why you jumped straight to that and skipped over my point.

The fact is, women are still conditioned to accept make-up as a fact of life. We have a legal choice to refuse it, but because of the socially constructed gender roles that declare a woman slovenly without it, most just wear it and deal.

THIS is my point. Legalities are not what I'm discussing here, and I got the impression Bethie wasn't discussing them either.

Exactly. I don't know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

I swear. The people who throw down red herrings left and right about how this and that "social" expectation can not/should not be legislated against are laughably-ignorant as to what feminism actually IS.

Some people seem to think feminism = misandry

*gasp* You mean it doesn't!?

Why should he when no argument was offered?

Bethie you called them gender rules, I say you cannot call them rules without legal enforcement, something being a rule implies there is formal and legal backed punishment for breaking the rule.

She responds to this post so I assume the context is concerning legalities. and saying that she suffers because of a gender role, how else am I supposed to take it if not that she wants a legally enforced social change?

I never said there were no social ramifications I simply said that they were not the states problems, it appeared you disagreed with this so I assumed you think they are the states problem.

Given the context I thought that was your point. I did not skip over you apparent point at all



Social conditioning still isn't the states responsibility. That most just wear it is there own choice they are entitled to profit off it if they so wish.



I was and you responded to my post without pointing to a change in topic or tone.

*facepalm* You're still missing my point.

Explain it again?

I'm tired of wasting time trying to show others the sky is blue.

If they're fine with the masculinization of violence, of women being indoctrinated to hate their bodies, and two sexes of people being required in every sphere to act and do things they might and often do hate and suffer from on the basis of being born with this versus that genitalia, and can't comprehend the concept of cultural and social activism divorced from political lobbying, nothing I say can help them.

Last edited by Bethie on 05 Apr 2011, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My own take on the matter and I will deal with the issue of equality.

Equality is an iffy issue, because it's a fleeting pursuit. What happens after you try to gain a 50/50 balance... do you fight to keep it balanced? No. Most groups who fight for this balance(equality) end up being partisan and only caring about the group they represent.

Since I believe in a creator who make out men and women to be equal, MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL.

But we are not the same. I think it's a beautiful thing... and we should celebrate those differences. First wave feminists seem to have a big issue accepting this, maybe because they feel that it may lead back the enironment that they were fighting and trying to get away from in the first place... where ((Because)) of a women's inherent differences, she could not achieve x, y, and z. I think women can do all of the things that men can do (in some areas worse then men, and in other areas better then men) but we need to acknowledge that we are not the same.

The two things that allow men and women to be equal are one or both of these two things:

1.) a creator who grants us equality.
2.) a higher power amongst humans (could be government, could society) that grants us this right.

We're not born equal. It is a right given to us by a right giver; you choose who that right giver is or was.

Also,... I feel that females have it made in the west. That they choose not to go into certain career fields is their own personal choice, and should be respected. They represent the majority of tomorrow's college-educated, tomorrow's management, and tomorrow's breadwinners for the family (in what ever shape that may take on in the future). I don't see it so positive with males, I think the preoccupation with staying young, immaturity, and never growing up has afflicted too much of the male population. More likely to commit crimes, drop out of high school, more likely to do drugs, more likely to get killed, more likely to engage in violence, more likely to be the victim of violence, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to not get a job, more likely to not attend college or graduate from college, etc.

Pfft, everyone knows the sky is orange.

<.<